Few fitness products receive the sort of all-out marketing blitz enjoyed by the once-humble kettlebell. Everywhere you turn, you’re bombarded with claims about the fitness and strength benefits of these simple devices. Most of the claims almost seem too good to be true.
Here is a sample of the sorts of things marketers are saying about kettlebells. All these quotes come from the first page of Google results for a search on the keyword “kettlebell”:
- Develop extreme all-around fitness; no tool does it better
- The centuries-old favorite of martial artists, ancient strongmen, and the military elite
- Kettlebells improve your 40-yard dash
- This super-simple “handheld gym” guarantees faster fat loss, rapid muscle gain, higher performance and dramatic power—in just minutes a day!
- Kettlebells also teach the user how to use momentum in ways that mimic real life situations that cannot be duplicated by machines, barbells, or dumbbells
- The single best conditioning tool for killer sports like kickboxing, wrestling, and football
Hype about kettlebells rings out loud and clear. But if loud-mouthed marketing claims are true, why don’t professional athletes use them? Did NFL players, Olympic track-and-field competitors, pro bodybuilders, Olympic weightlifters, soldiers, professional boxers, and other top athletes spend their early years learning how to manipulate a kettlebell? The answer is no.
The origin of kettlebells
Scottish athletes threw trading weights in competition long before anyone coined the term 'kettlebell'.
During and after the Roman Empire, Europeans used heavy stones with handles as standard weights in trade and commerce. In Scotland there is a centuries-old tradition of using these weights for throwing and carrying competitions. These were the first kettlebells, though the name didn’t exist yet.
In the 19th century, strongmen developed true kettlebells: hollow iron spheres with rounded handles. Lead shot loaded into the spheres changed the weight of the device.
These early prototypes were used for strength challenges, not training. It takes skill to lift thick-handled, awkwardly-shaped implements, and strongmen practiced until they could out-perform even the largest and strongest of their audience members.
At the time, kettlebell lifting was nothing more than a gimmick – like lifting thick-handled dumbbells or anvils. Strongmen didn’t make their livings by relying on being the strongest men around. This wasn’t something they could control. Instead, they slanted the competitions in their favor. These strongmen earned their keep by outperforming all comers in skill-based competitions that only they practiced for. Kettlebells – with their thick, grip-challenging handles and their peculiar, off-center balance point – were perfect for strongman challenges.
Kettlebells versus Dumbbells
The advantages of dumbbells – especially adjustable dumbbells – are overwhelming. You might as well fill a milk-jug with concrete and use it for strength training.
| Kettlebell |
Dumbbell |
| Fixed weight; Expensive adjustable kettlebells are awkward, ungainly, and cause pinches and bruises | Easily and quickly adjustable |
| Thick handle causes blisters | Normal handle designed ergonomically |
| The off-center balance point strains the wrist during presses and “pushing” movements | Wrist naturally assumes ergonomically-proper orientation, no matter the exercise |
| Grip strength the limiting factor in “pulling” movements; no way around this drawback | Grip strength is rarely an issue. If necessary, it can either be addressed through training, or overcome with various time-tested techniques |
| Kettlebell training is synonymous with skill training. Often, strength gains come from neural adaptation and skill acquisition, not hypertrophy | Dumbbells are a fitness and strength training tool, not an end in and of themselves. They deliver results immediately, regardless of the level of neural adaptation and skill |
| Repetitive-stress injuries are common and practically inevitable with the massively-hyped but impractical kettlebell movements | Repetitive stress injuries are rare and avoidable |
| Expensive and overpriced | Priced almost as a commodity; plus, the plates are fungible |
| Handles are cast iron instead of forged steel | Forged handles are thinner and ergonomically designed |
| Limited number of movements, some highly contrived and impractical | Dumbbells are suited for many time-tested movements and exercises used by successful athletes |
| Cast iron handles must be painted | Forged handles and knurled grips go a long way towards preventing blisters |
What is kettlebell training?
Take a moment to think about the expression “kettlebell training”. Doesn’t it seem a bit weird to you? After all, you never hear the term “dumbbell training” or “barbell training”. Instead, athletes and sports coaches talk about “weight training”, “resistance training”, or “strength training”.
Kettlebells look like tea kettles.
The fact is: kettlebell training means just what it says: training you to use a kettlebell.
Kettlebells require skill. And when you get good at them, you’re good at using a kettlebell. Big deal. That, and a dollar, will buy you a cup of coffee. Of course, the sorts of people who use kettlebells probably pay a lot more than a dollar for a cup of coffee. But I digress.
Are there any side-benefits to this sort of workout? Yes; you get a full-body strength and conditioning workout. But you’ll get the same results faster, cheaper, and safer by using a dumbbell.
Kettlebell lifts are worse than useless
Four main “moves” make up the majority of kettlebell training:
- Kettlebell swings
- Kettlebell cleans
- Kettlebell jerks
- Kettlebell snatches
While these movements are beneficial, they are not unique to kettlebell training. It’s perfectly acceptable to do them with dumbbells.
Adjustable kettlebell? That's one way to make one!
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Swings are simply better with a dumbbell, there is no real debate.
- Marketing hypesters claim that swings are a “centuries-old secret” training technique used by the kettlebell-toting warriors of yore. But this is a lie. In fact, swings are an assistance exercise that has been used by Olympic-style lifters ever since weight lifting became a standardized sport. However, these professional athletes don’t waste time with kettlebells — instead, they use dumbbells or T-bar handles and swing for time.
- Swings – a warm-up and conditioning exercise – are best performed for time. You can adjust the weight of your dumbbell to vary the intensity until you can work out for a given period of time. Unless you spend hundreds of dollars on different kettlebells, yours is bound to be either too heavy or too light. You can’t use it as a neutral tool; you have to adapt your workout to the constraints of the implement.
- Among kettlebell zealots, there is just too much emphasis on swings as a conditioning movement. While it’s a good move for warm-up before a squat session, it is a terrible choice for cardio or full-body conditioning. Ballistic stretching of the shoulders, elbows and wrist joints is unnecessary and dangerous. Tendons and ligaments are not built for this sort of abuse. Plus, the lower back is not designed to handle high-rep repetitive stress. Athletes like pro boxers, whose sports involve a lot of lower-back repetitive stress, are very careful to avoid low-back overuse. Kettlebell zealots laugh in the face of this very real danger. They overuse kettlebell swings out of ignorance.
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The clean and press is a fantastic power movement. Athletes and wannabes alike benefit from this movement. However, the kettlebell clean and press is virtually useless when compared to the dumbbell equivalent.
- Kettlebell cleans are awkward and they sort of defeat the purpose of a clean, which is to rack a weight in preparation for putting it overhead. Most kettlebell athletes seem to end up with the weight resting on their chest and their lower back hyperextended. This is not a position I’d recommend. Plus, it changes the exercise from a test of overhead pressing ability into a test of lower-back flexibility. There’s a reason why overhead pressing is no longer a competitive Olympic lift.
- It stresses the wrist by bending the hand backwards. The connective tissue in the wrist and forearm takes a long time to heal from injury. Repetitive-stress injury to this area is a serious problem. Thankfully, some forward-looking companies are building deep-handled kettlebells that lessen this problem, but the problem doesn’t go away entirely.
- The awkward shape makes it impossible to perform heavy, low-rep cleans without spending weeks learning to adapt the move to the implement. The kettlebell training takes precedence, rather than the strength training.
- You’ll never move as much weight with a kettlebell as you will with a dumbbell. More weight equals more strength, and more strength equals more size and power.
- Lack of adjustability means you can’t design a sensible weight progression into your program.
Form should follow function. Kettlebells' minimalist design is visually pleasing.
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Jerks were developed for one reason: to allow you to put up the maximum amount of weight possible. Doing them with a kettlebell for reps is like putting the cart before the horse; it makes no sense. The mindless kettlebell zealots who do this don’t seem to question why they are performing this move, they just do it. You might as well practice tying your shoes for reps; it makes just as much sense.
- Watch people performing kettlebell jerks on YouTube. Every one of them is performing a push-press, not a true jerk. Calling it a “jerk” just lends an air of legitimacy to the movement.
- Snatches, again, were invented so you can get as much weight as possible overhead in one clean, fluid motion. Performing them for reps is silly. It’s the weight that matters in a snatch, not the number of reps. If you want to snatch, use an adjustable dumbbell and keep the reps constant from workout to workout; base your progression on weight lifted, not reps. And, more importantly, if you use a dumbbell you won’t beat up your forearm or torque your delicate elbow joint.
Kettlebell competition: the good, the bad, and the ugly
If kettlebell competition is your thing, great! Competition of any stripe is healthy, productive, and inspirational. But don’t make exaggerated claims about kettlebell competition just to justify the use of a second-rate piece of equipment.
Full circle: kettlebell athletes make up new exercises to challenge themselves.
Kettlebells are part of a larger marketing plan. The kettlebell industry does more than just sell you a lump of cast iron. It sells you instruction, competition, and rankings (kettlebell black-belt, anyone?). It’s a sub-culture in search of a purpose.
Kettlebell subculture reminds me of martial-arts subculture during the 80s. Back then, martial arts schools promised everything: fitness, flexibility, strength, and self-defense. But they delivered half-baked, physiologically-unsound training methodologies that risked injury without actually teaching anyone to fight very well. Instead of training like pro fighters (boxers, Olympic wrestlers, kick boxers, et al), martial artists substituted hype for results. Rather than test themselves in open competition, they designed tournaments that rewarded conformity to the system.
Kettlebell marketers are taking a page out of the martial arts instructors’ playbook, and enthusiasts are falling prey to the same sort of hype. All the promises in the list of marketing points at the beginning of this article are bogus. By the time kettlebell zealots realize this, they are already ensconced in the cult of kettlebell. The ones that don’t quit justify their continued participation by taking part in competitions that test hard-earned skill with a kettlebell. Outlandish promises are soon forgotten. The kettlebells become an end in and of themselves, rather than a way forward.
Anything a kettlebell can do, an adjustable dumbbell can do better
Don’t fall prey to the kettlebell marketing hype. Adjustable dumbbells will serve your needs without locking you into a bizarre and counter-productive exercise methodology.
Unless you’ve been brainwashed by the cult of kettlebell, odds are you never wake up in the morning and, out of the blue, decide to see how many kettlebell snatches you can do in five minutes. The workout tool should not dictate your actions to you; instead, you should choose a tool that helps you reach your goals. Kettlebells don’t help you do anything but get better at manipulating a kettlebell.
{ 88 comments… read them below or add one }
This is excellent advice. Kettlebells are hyped by people trying to make a $$$. It is a shame to see so much focus placed on such a limited and limiting piece of workout equipment. Get a good set of weights and forget the kettlebells.
I used to be virtually in love with kettlebells, but after reading this, I see how wrong I was.
Thanks for this information.
–Steve
Hello:
It is clearly that the author of this post does not have any kind of experience training with kettlebells.
I started strength training in 1993 when I was 17 years old. After 13 years of training just with barbells and dumbbells I started to use kettlebells.
Results?
Before using KB I could do shoulder press with 2 dumbbells of 40 kg each. With one month of KB standing press I went up to 50 kg also with dumbbells and KB.
Before I could not do perfect squats lower than parallel, because I was inflexible. After KB swings , this was solved.
I do not want to say which are better, but barbells, dumbbells and kettlebells should be staples in any sound weight training program.
What are KB best at ?
Clean and jerk
KB are definetly better than dumbbells because you can “rack” a KB, while you can not rack a dumbbell. You need to rack (to keep it stable on your upper chest and shoulder)the weight to stabilize it at the top of the clean. If you can not rack the weight well, you can not do any jerk, because you would not be able to transfer the strength of your legs and hips in order to jerk the weight above your head.
Dumbbells are not really good for clen and jerk, but KB are.
Barbells are good, but unfortunately , most of the trainees can not perform a proper rack.
Snatch
Because the shape of the KB, you can stabilize it at the top of the drill. You can not stabilize a heavy dumbbell.
A heavy dumbbell 40 – 50 kg is huge and it may broke your knees when swinging it between legs, while the KB is much smaller for the same weight.
Swings
The hip thrust is the most powerfull move of the human body, used for running, jumping, throwing, punching, lifting. You can execute the swing properly just if you let the weight go back between your legs, in order to properly load your hamstrings.
Try to swing a 50 kg dumbbell and you will want badly a kettlebell.
The KB is better for Turkish Get Up, Shoulder press, Windmill, Bent press, Weighted Pistol squats – all major drills.
Dumbbells are better for bench press, curls , extension.
Beside kettlebells cost the same as dumbbells, or will cost the same in the near future. ( I live in China and I know the production prices and costs) .
Kb are much better than dumbbells for overall conditioning, when training stamina, muscle endurance, power endurance, balance , coordination.
Dumbbells may be better , just for bodybuilding.
When designing a strength and conditioning programs you should consider more things:
1. What are your goals ?
2. What physical qualities do you want to improve ?
3. How much time do you want to invest ?
Here are the best strength and conditioning drills in my oppinion:
1. Squat – barbell, KB pistol
2. Deadlift – barbell
3. Kettlebell snatch
4. Kettlebell clean & jerk
5. Pull ups
6. Dips
7. Kettlebell shoulder press
8. Kettlebell Turkish Get Up
9. Bench press – barbell, dumbbells
10. Bent over row – barbell, kettlebells, dumbbells
11. Gorilla crunch
12. Kettlebell windmill
13. Kettlebell swing
Conclusion:
Kettlebells are an excellent tool for overall conditioning.
With a KB you can train strength, power, stamina, cardiovascular endurance, muscle endurance, coordination, agility, precision, balance.
Kettlebells are best for home training providing “the best bang for your buck”.
Dumbbells and barbells are good also.
In the near future kettlebells will become a staple for any training center.
For more information read my kettlebell blog .
http://www.kettlebell102.blogspot.com
Read to achieve !
Alex
Well written.
Interestingly, post like yours, which make sense, built on facts, don’t get a rteply from the author… weird…
One addition from me: The author claims, that handling KBs need skill, and that’s a negative side. Well, anything that developes skill, developes you. While learning new skills, you stimulate your nervous system, your muscles, etc. With different type of movements, that your body is already used to, you move muscles a way they might not have moved before.
All this does not really seem negative, if you think about it a bit.
Clearly the author of the article has negative experience with KBs. Many do. But this does not show how bad KBs are, but rather how unprepared the author was.
The numbers on the weights are also only numbers. If you can handle less weight then with DBs, well. So? Handle less. That way only your EGO wiullk get hurt, not your wrists…
Lastly, learning KB skills isn’t good for anything but handling KBs? Fine, just think of a DB preacher curl, and list the practical uses of the movement… (Or, my favorite, the bench press, can be practical, when, while repairing your car, it falls on you, and you have to push it off your body…). Not every movement we do while we train is of practical use, but most should be. And KBs are awkward, “real-life-type” objects, as, in real life, many times you’d have to lift something heavy, which would NOT be ergonomically shaped. At all. (And also, if you train because it’s comfortable, you got something very wrong there…)
That be all now.
I assure you that if you try to ascribe motives to “the author” other than those that have been stated numerous times (writing articles that help skinny kids bulk up and add muscle mass), you’re only making a fool out of yourself. My motives are clear and unambiguous. No, I didn’t have a “negative experience” with KBs, and why you think I “clearly” have is beyond me. In fact if you do a search on this site (google
site:skinnybulkup.com kettlebell), you’ll find that I’ve mentioned kettlebells in a positive light a few times. But since they’re totally inappropriate for skinny guys who want to bulk up, I took the time to write a detailed, factual article explaining why they are inferior to dumbbells.Unfortunately, rather than add to the value of this page by adding facts that either support or detract from my argument, most kettlebell experts take the ultimately futile route of attacking and speculating about the author’s motivations.
Perhaps I have another motive: to rescue impressionable young kids from silly platitudes like that one. Mysticism has no place here.
Clearly, this author was atttempting humor. I think. All I can say is wow.
If you read this you will find zero facts. It’s all opinion of one person and they are misinformed. This is what’s wrong with the fitness industry. Disregard this website as non-sense.
Robert: I’m surprised that you didn’t find at least one “fact” in the article. You would be more credible if you’d claimed there were “few” facts, “debatable” facts, “cherry-picked” facts, or “unimportant” facts; but “zero” facts? That’s a bizarre statement, even if it comes from an anonymous internet troll.
Perhaps you’re in denial (which is the first stage of kettlebell-withdrawl grief). Have no fear, acceptance will arrive eventually.
1. Swing a 106 pound dumbbell between your legs, especially one of those “easily manipulatged” adjustable ones. When you get back from having both of your knees replaced, call me.
2. If you get blisters during a kettlebell swing, you are an idiot. The swing, by nature, doesn’t rotate the bell in your hand.
3. A dumbbell is ergonomic? Come on. If a dumbbell we ergonomic, briecases, shopping bags, suitcases, and your purse would be build that way — with the wieght over the ends. The kettlebell more closely resembles things we carry in everyday life.
4. Adjustable dumbbells are more beneficial? The time I waste adjusting dumbbells can be better suited sitting at the coffee shop after my workout. I own dumbbells as well as kettlebells, and I would never touch the adjustable ones. It is not the adjustable dumbbells that are designed “Ergonomically.” It is the fixed weight ones.
5. Cost? Cost of kettlebells is comparable to dumbbells.
Don’t let the facts get in the way of your writing.
Dave:
* Heavy swings are better with a T-handle. It makes the weight easily adjustable. Why waste money on a 100-pound kettlebell when you can have an adjustable T-handle for a few dollars?
* Don’t idiots deserve a blister-free existence too? Have pity on those whom you feel are your intellectual inferiors.
* Yes, dumbbells are ergonomically-designed; this is in marked contrast to kettlebells, whose adherents take pride in the fact that bells are a less-than-ideal piece of workout equipment from a long-term usability standpoint.
* Whether you would “touch” an adjustable dumbbell is immaterial. Have you seen a modern adjustable dumbbell? You can change the weight in less than a second. Welcome to the 21st century!
* Cost of kettlebells may be “comparable” to dumbbells, but since they’re much less useful, it’s still a rip-off.
I agree here I’m 53 years old and have lifted, worked out w/ bodyweight and weights since being in the military soem 30 years ago, recently discovered kettlebells, they are very hard on the wrists and elbow joints no need to do high rep sets in swing or snatch. I have gone back to bodyweight pullups, handstand pushups , squats and lunges and some barbell clean & press.I have damage to my left hand and right wrist by going extreme with KB’s they are not good!
Well, the price of KB’s is coming down. I saw Jesupgym.com has DD clones for just $1.00/per pound. Even with shipping they’re cheap. Fitness Outlet here in Chicago has ‘em for $1.25/lb.
Regarding ‘better’… I like Dumbbell snatches better. I feel more of a full body effect. I also feel more forearm strength and growth with dumbbells…. kettlebells you can hook without using muscles much, but release a dumbbell for a second and you’ve got problems!
However, I do find kettlebells superior, to me, for swings and overhead presses. Regarding the latter, I find the dumbbells put too much tension into my trap/neck area, whereas the kettlebells don’t.
IF they were all at the same price (and you can find used dumbbells for 0.54cents/lb in Chicago) I’d got with the KB. But if people are still paying $2/lb plus shipping, I don’t see how that price is in any way warranted. Just my opinion.
All I can say is, Thank God someone has published this article.
It may protect many people from real injury.
I’ve researched this subject well over the past 8 months because I broke my left forearm in April while doing a set of kettlebell snatches. I now have a steel plate and 6 screws placed on my radius bone.
I have tried to post warnings on various kettlebell forums etc, only to meet with brainwashed individuals often hurling abuse at me, or simply calling me a liar!
They do not believe such an injury can happen unless someone is “an idiot” (the kettlebell fraternity love to call people idiots for some reason, especially if someone gets injured with a kettlebell…)
In my case I was fit and strong, 42, 210 pounds, I had been training with the 24kg bell for 9 months, very happily, I had believed all the books and DVDs…I was doing sets 6 cleans and preses…and sets of 8 snatches regularly and easily, for months…no bruises or pain to warn me my “form was bad”…but one mis-timed snatch in April and I was in hospital for 2 days and getting my first ever surgery.
This article above is the first I have seen published for many years, daring to criticise the kettlebell.
If you search online you find articles from 2002-2003, like Ray Brennan’s good one about “kettlebell hype”…but the kettlebell marketing machine must have hit overdrive around 2004 and I know how effective that gang can be at silencing dissenting voices…I posted the detail of my injury on the main US kettlebell forum…it had 5000 readers…until the forum bosses deleted the post.
No way do they want people to be warned they could break their arms while snatching.
That would hurt the wallet.
The only thing wrong with the article above is that it UNDERSTATES the risk when it says the kettlebell can bruise or pinch, as my case proves.
I had trained safely for 24 years, with weights, bodyweight etc, with no injuries, before that April incident.
John Logan
Hi John:
Sorry to hear of your troubles; I hope your injured arm heals up as good as new.
I suppose any exercise equipment can cause injuries, not just kettlebells. What I take issue with is the way kettlebell people claim near-magical qualities for what is a very basic piece of equipment. It is not a handheld gym, it is merely a weight.
Nobody starts using kettlebells because they want to see how many snatches they can do before fatigue sets in. They start becasue they believe some of the marketing hype that I show examples of in the 2nd paragraph.
Later, as the ridiculous hype is proved false, many drift away from kettlebells as the main focus of their workouts. But those that stick with it end up doing meaningless and ultimately harmful routines which build repetitive-stress injuries and other unwanted problems.
Since this site is a collection of my advice to skinny young kids who want to bulk up, I try to write articles that address that issue. When I began to get more and more questions from kids who were being seduced by the kettlebell hype, I wrote this article. Kettlebells are fine for some things — you might even find that I’ve mentioned them a time or two in some of my other articles — but they’re singularly inappropriate for the target audience of this website.
Everything in moderation!
Since getting involved with kettlebells about 8 months ago, I have really enjoyed working with them. I rapidly progressed from 16 -24 -32 kg bells and thought my form was pretty good.
Recently I started getting pain in my wrists and hand whilst doing overhead presses with the 32kg. The pain was getting so bad that I had to take a break and use dumbells instead for any overhead lifts.
I honestly believe that kettlebells do place unnecessary stress on the wrist and elbow when pressing higher weights overhead and not to mention the bisters on the hands with snatches and one hand swings.
I only use kettlebells for two handed swings now as a warm up excercise and have switched to dumbells for all overhead lifts and snatches. The dumbells are more comfortable and still provide a great workout. At least I can easily increase/decrease the weight and have no more pain in the wrist.
Kettlebells are great for rows but you can’t easily increase the weight.
Each to their own.
Hi ray:
As you probably know, some kettlebells have “deeper” handles than others. A deeper handle lets you get away with not bending your wrist as much as with earlier, less ergonomically-designed kettlebells. This is definitely the way to go.
When kettlebells were first being popularized less than a decade ago, they were cheaply made from cast iron. The manufacturing process necessitated thick, stubby handles that were anything but comfortable or ergonomically correct.
But in recent times, and in part due to experiences such as yours, some manufacturers are making k’bells with forged handles which are much better than the cast iron wrist-wreckers that they replace.
To anyone who is thinking of taking up kettlebell “training”: don’t skimp on price; make sure to get a deep-handled kettlebell.
Hey guys
I found this post because I was concerned about the risks of KB training. I’ve never done it, but I am looking for an efficient way to get a good workout that includes strength training and some endurance. I recently moved from FL to NY and started law school. While I have always been a member of a gym, I find that now I have little free time, am away from my place too much as it is (I have dogs), and can’t train outdoors in the winter. I can no longer afford the 2 hr workouts at the gym full of quality equipment. I have that pathetic feeling you get when you go from regular exercise to a fully sedentary lifestyle, and I need something (anything) to balance the stress of school with physical activity. The KB seemed to offer shortened workouts with a fair balance of strength and cardio that could be accomplished at home. Perfect. But without ever having tried it, it is still easy to see where they can be cruel to the wrists, elbows, shoulders, and back (I was always taught NOT to swing the weights). So my question is this: What is the best way to get a fairly short (30 min per day?), well balanced workout at home without buying a ton of equipment or machines that take will take up half of my little NY apartment? I have little extra cash, so whatever route I take here will be the one I’ll have to stick with for a while. The KB was particularly attractive because, though the weight is fixed, it seems one will at least get you started, and one KB with a starter video or book is still far cheaper than a pair of adjustable dumbells (which would mean a bench as well). Any suggestions would be a great help. In advance, Thank You.
My focus with this site is to give skinny kids the info they need to add muscle. Kettlebells don’t help them reach that goal.
But for your purposes, a typical kettlebell routine might be fine, especially if you mixed it up with some other workouts. I wouldn’t advise restricting yourself to kettlebells, or making them the sole focus of your exercise regimen, but as one part of a comprehensive fitness routine, they’re fine.
Having said that, there’s very little, if anything, that you can do with a kettlebell and not with a dumbbell. Kettlebell-style workouts are nothing new. They’re simply Olympic-lifting routines altered to fit around the constraints imposed by a kettlebell.
Whatever you do, make sure the workout is tailored around your ultimate goals. Too many kettlebell cultists end up modifying their initial goals to align with kettlebell culture rather than making the kettlebell work for them.
Maybe you’d enjoy the rosstraining.com forum; it’s full of people who don’t necessarily rely on a fully-equipped gym.
Good Luck.
I respect the author’s opinion, however if I may lend out a word of advice to anyone whom has harmed themselves using the kettlebell: Either research how to execute the exercise properly before attempting it, or have a trainer with you as you perform the techniques. Mastering the kettlebell is an art, unlike dumbells which in my opinion are not efficient tools for entire body workouts. I say this because dumbells get to a size where you can’t possible do the same exercises as the kettlebell. You can do any exercise with a 100 Ib kettlebell that you can do with a 100 Ib dumbell. You cannot do most of the kettlebell exercises with a 100Ib dumbell, as opposed to a 100 Ib kettlebell. This is the truth.
There is a right way and a wrong way to using the kettlebells just as there is a right way and a wrong way to using dumbells. Blisters in the hand, use gloves. Harming yourself through jerks and swings, stretch next time. As far as the whole disadvantage of adjusting the weight, my opinion: Next time think before you purchase the kettlebell. Assess the fact that it is a fixed weight. When you purchase it, master that weight before you complain about not being able to adjust it. The kettlebell is not built for JUST strength conditioning such as the dumbell. The kettlebell is built for all types of exercise.
As far as the question asked: “Did NFL players, Olympic track-and-field competitors, pro bodybuilders, Olympic weightlifters, soldiers, professional boxers, and other top athletes spend their early years learning how to manipulate a kettlebell?” The answer is…they did. They do. And they always will. Ever hear of the Spetsnaz…Russian Special Forces? Did you know that Russian soldiers were issued a standard 53 Ib kettlebell? NFL? Maybe they do although, personally, I don’t consider NFL players as the epitome of human peak fitness. Why don’t they advertise it? Their bodies are not accustomed to the kettlebells. They would hurt themselves before moving up to the same weight they use with regular dumbells. Olympic track and field? Depending on the sport, they do. You’re not going to be lifting a lot of weights if you do distance and even then, not heavy ones. As far as shot putters, I am one currently and I use it all the time. And though I cannot speak for the other shot putters, I can tell you now that the kettlebell was no stranger to them. Olympic weight lifters? First off, the Kettlebell is not a straight bar with two ends with a bunch of weights on them. Go on Youtube and look up Kettlebell competitions. They do have international kettlebell lifting competetions and I assure you, comrade, these are not just bulky hulks of clumsy muscle trotting about. Some of those kettlebells are close to or are around 200 Ibs. Professional Boxers use the kettlebell all the time. Expose yourself to their training regiments before making such an assumption that they don’t.
What it really comes down to is preference. Some people don’t like using the kettlebell for whatever reason just as others, such as myself, aren’t crazy about using dumbells. Some people prefer using their own body weight or using resistance bands. It, in the end, comes down to preference. I will always choose the kettlebell as my personal tool of conditioning. I respectfully implore that you research the tool more, take a few classes (yes they do have classes on how to manipulate the kettlebell) and try it a little more often for yourself. You may find yourself actually liking it.
Good Luck, comrade.
Kettlebell Power to You
Sev
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfuJyB0XB9Q
Sev,
before I “harmed myself using a kettlebell” as you put it, I did thoroughly research how to do the snatch exercise (the one that broke my arm so badly it had to be reconstructed with 6 screws and a steel plate). I used several books and dvds, “comrade”, the same ones you will have seen. Using them, I was able to snatch happily and safely with no warnings of bad form such as pain or bruising, for 6 months of weekly snatching sessions.
Who would not think at that point the exercise was “mastered”?
But still, one day I went to do a set and the bell broke my arm…at speed I lost control of it for a fraction of a second.
With a kettlebell that is all it takes.
No amount of research or moderation can protect you from that increased risk level.
As for proper instruction, the above link is to a display of kettlebell juggling, demonstrated by an accredited and respected and qualified kettlebell teacher, whose methods are endorsed by the leading …”ex-spetsnaz” to use your language…kettlebell teacher on a “kettlebell juggling” website.
It’s all great, until a few people over the next several years get hold of the dvds teaching these moves…believe me, many of these people will not have paid kettlebell instructors handy to keep them safe (if they can)…
Did you know that the human foot can not always be repaired successfully if broken…not to speak of the human head…or back.
The young fellow there is only juggling with a 16kg bell in that link…but he has another on Youtube where it is a 32kg bell he is launching high overhead and watching it come down again towards his face just before he catches it.
There’s no margin for error at all.
And these guys are the “teachers”!
They absolutely do not give a xxxx about all the potential injuries their bad info will be causing over the next few years.
As long as they can sell their books and DVDs…and $1600 weekend courses… to guys like you who will then go round spouting the comrade/spetsnaz/da kattleball is gut mumbo jumbo…then they will stay in business and the virus will keeep spreading.
Get well soon Sev,
Logan
What exactly happened? You are being a bit vague on the details of your incident. This is the first major injury I have heard of from kettlebell use. No doubt there are more. Everyone needs to be very cautious when using a weight of any size or shape. Good fom is essential.
I am looking for training to carry over into real life. Improve general athletic conditioning, strength, flexibility, the like. KB’s definitly fit the bill.
I personally own a 16 kg KB and find it more usefull than my total 145 lb. barbell and adjustable dumbbell set. I am very limited there and cannot justify the expence of more weights.
Proper form and skill are far more important than what your training tool is. You can use nothing but your bodyweight and still succed in most things. Not everything. The same goes for every other fitness tool or training system.
I would like to know details on both your KB training history and your injury.
Reigle,
I trained for 24 years: weight training, bodyweight training, yoga, chi kung, running.
From 1985-1987 I worked as a trainer in a gym, the only trainer there, teaching weight training: no-one of the dozens of people I taught over the years was ever injured.
Then, at age 40, I bought a 24 kg kettlebell.
I was not vague at all: I trained with it for 9 months, sets of 6 cleans and presses per arm/ sets of 8 snatches per arm. Did this once a week, had no signs of bad form such as the only kind warned of in the books and DVDs I owned, like bruises or pain in forearm or wrist after snatches, none of that.
Then went in the garden one day, April 4 last year, (can’t remember exactly what time in case you’ll say I’m being vague…late afternoon though…ok?)…I’d warmed up with sets of cleans and presses, sets of high pulls. Then started my usually weekly set of snatches I’d done safely for months and months by then with no probs…first rep fine….2nd rep broke my arm.
2 days in hospital…morphine…surgery…now a steel plate and 6 screws stuck in the arm so deep that surgeons are afraid to take it out for fear of nerve damage, 10 months later.
What is vague about that?
If you want the full exhaustive detail you can Google “kettlebell snatch broken arm”..I typed a blow by blow account (with one finger) on the Transformetrics website…maybe you’ll find whatever kernel of detail there that I am failing to supply you with now.
In fact, if you Google it, you’ll find quite a few forums and posts I made over several months.
I still think the worst thing going on right now is that the kettlebell gurus are now pushing kettlebell juggling…see my earlier post.
And the world’s biggest Ruskie kettlebell guru is directly endorsing the kettlebell juggling website, right at the top of the page…advising people to juggle kettlebells at speed overhead…the main teacher is on Youtube juggling a 32kg iron ball and it nearly hits his skull more than once.
Someone is going to end up dead or in a vegetative state sooner or later.
If none of this is specific enough for you Reigle, you just let me know.
By the way, I used the 24kg bell because the 16kg was too light for me to snatch or press…it felt like a toy (and for that reason I do not believe the story that training with a 16kg prepares you for a 24kg).
A 16kg will not break your arm.
A 24kg will.
That’s all I know.
Either will fracture your skull though, if you juggle them.
I’ll try to tell you again: I trained for 24 years, myself and others, weights, bodyweight, yoga, chi kung…I did not injure myself ever, I did not injure anyone I trained, ever.
Then I get a kettlebell, and I’m in hospital 9 months later.
I wish you a speedy and complete recovery, John.
I’m a college undergrad who has recently purchased a 24 kg bell of my own (in place of a gym membership) under the premise of training for the USSS snatch test. After considering your posts, I’ve decided that for my fitness goals I have no need to condition the bones of my forearms to withstand repeated contact with heavy iron flung at maximum speed. It seems like common sense, when the kettlebell mystique is removed, that the risk to benefit ratio of the snatch is exceptionally dangerous compared to other movements.
Further, no RKC has been able to provide a consistent rationale for why the snatch provides better athletic benefits than a high pull or one armed swing performed to head level. That seemingly negligible flipping action of the bell does seem to infuse the snatch with more risk than benefit, especially when the weight becomes as heavy as 32 kg.
I’ve decided to adopt the moderate approach to kettlebells, using the strict military press and turkish get up (neither of which absolutely require a kettlebell) for upper body conditioning, and using the one armed swing and high pull for posterior chain development and cardiovascular conditioning. I still stand by aspects of the RKC training philosophy, but with serious reservations concerning ballistic movements with a potential for impact.
It should stand to reason that regardless of whether kettlebell lifters agree with your account or not, the precautionary principle dictates that we should weigh potential risks with potential benefits. This is a basic law of choice and economics. Athletically, suppose a parkour club decided that running downstairs two steps at a time was the proper way to run stairs, simultaneously training coordination, reaction speed, and concentration under fatigue (the claims of the USSS kettlebell snatch test). Suppose even one of them fell and broke an arm while running downstairs two at a time.
A member of the club might criticize the injured person’s technique like a bully…
Or they might conclude that the risk of running in that fashion negates any perceived benefit, and further, that running downstairs one step at a time would yield the same benefits without the same potential for disaster. For those who train with kettlebells, I suggest considering the benefits and risks of each movement, and diminishing risks when possible.
I believe you’ve done a service to the fitness community through your testimonial, John. Best of luck,
-Ben Reynolds
Nevada, USA
Interesting article. There is really no better or worse tool overall. It depends on what is your purpose.
I like to the kettlebells for what they are. I do not like the balance of dumbbells. Kettlebell movements feel lively. Dumbbells movements feel dull.
i highly disagree. kettlebell worked cardio and muscle at the same time and the cardio aspect was very difficult. i wouldnt say only use one or the other but putting kettlebells into a training routine for me put me over the hump, helped me lose weight i couldnt do with dumbells and cardio alone and seriously gave me a six pack with muscles on the sides of the six pack too.
if you hurt your arms your form is wrong. this article is just plain idiotic.
I”ve used both implements. Finally sold my KB. I also bought into the hype. Here is the thing: kb presses are actually easier than same weight dumbell presses. With a KB, you can stil open your hand, somewhat relax your grip, and still get it up. With a dumbbell, relax your grip for a second and the db will come out of your hand.
Same goes for Farmers Walks… walk with a kettlebell, you can just let it hook around your fingers and walk. Try that with a dumbbell and watch what happens.
Furthermore, KB proponents often tout that KBs are superior for presses because of the rotational force one has to fight, you therefore utilize all the small shoulder stabilizers, so the argument goes. BUT… a fixed weight hex head dumbbell also has two forces, one left of your hand and one right, its more of a lever than a rotation, but its something your hand and arm also have to fight as it were. IF anything, that rotational force can tear the crap out of your shoulder if you aren’t PERFECT in your form, like the above Mr. Logan stated. Who is THAT good, EVERY TIME?
I’ll stick with DBs. Play It Again Sports has ‘em for 49 cents a pound ussed, 75 cents new. Beats $2/lb plus shipping on those big ole overrated kookieballs.
Very good point and I share you’re opinion when you wrote: “Furthermore, KB proponents often tout that KBs are superior for presses because of the rotational force one has to fight, you therefore utilize all the small shoulder stabilizers, so the argument goes. BUT… a fixed weight hex head dumbbell also has two forces, one left of your hand and one right, its more of a lever than a rotation, but its something your hand and arm also have to fight as it were. IF anything, that rotational force can tear the crap out of your shoulder if you aren’t PERFECT in your form, like the above Mr. Logan stated. Who is THAT good, EVERY TIME?”
Never said the Kettlebell was Perfect. And I don’t like the fact that the Kettlebells sell for $2 a pound. It’s outrageous. But when you point to that arguement, blame the businessmen.
Sev
I’ll just put my own 2 cents in here and say that kettlebells are FAR inferior to dumbbells.
I use dumbbells for bodybuilding at home, and then in the spring, I also use them for cardio to burn off the winter flab.
I take the plates from them an insert them in an adjustable weight vest, and go do dips and pullups off my back deck.
Each dumbell has 47.5 kg (100+lbs)worth of plates on them fully loaded and I can do snatches, swings , cleans and any other kettlebell exercise as well, including those rebel row thingies and what have you.
Where do I keep them and the vest? in a 1, 1/2 sq ft corner of my closet.
Kettlebells, in my opinion, are for those who can’t think for themselves, easily fall for marketing hype or are just plain exercise poseurs.
The smart man uses dumbbells.
The last comment isn’t true because I didn’t see the kettlebell on TV until I looked it up. I saw it in a gym, wondered what the heck it was, used it, fell in love, then went out bought one and now I use it. It has nothing to do with the marketing aspect of it. I tend to ignore those guys anyway. Hell I don’t even watch TV
The smart man uses dumbbells
The smart and focused man uses a kettlebell
The experts agree that kettlebells are superior to dumbbells for some of the claims that you are trying to refute. Let your readers decide if they would want to take advice from someone who won’t post their qualifications on their own site or from a Ph.D who runs a human performance lab at a major university…
http://www.ironcorekettlebells.com/lib/images/acekettlebells012010.pdf
Sarah posts more kettlebell drivel. Of course you can work out with them. That’s not an issue. You can get a great workout lifting a sandbag, chopping wood, running hills or doing pushups. But compared to all the advantages that dumbbells offer, Kettlebells suck. I agree with Thomas, Willie, John and Mark, and the others who go along with this blog’s main point. Kettlebells are for wannabe poseurs, buying into the grand marketing schemes of a few get-rich-quick scam artists.
Funny how Sarah’s link is related to a kettlebell company. Duh, go figure! lol
Myself, I do cardio weights with dumbbells and get ripped to shreds. I don’t need any “pseudo-scientific” studies to tell me dumbbells work. They’ve proved their metal for far longer than the kettlebell fad. You can get both huge and ripped with dumbbells, and without killing your joints, like with kettlebells.
And kettlebells are a fad, no mistake. You can tell by the number of people who get their back up when somebody tells the truth about how kettlebells suck. Kettlebells suck, and so do their hypemeister fanboys.
Kettlebells suck.
Most kettlebell zealots believe their exercises are somehow special or unique. But what they fail to realize is: signature kettlebell moves are nothing more than assistance lifts that have been in use forever by Olympic-style weightlifters. Unfortunately, the kettlebell variants are modified — bastardized really — from the original barbell and dumbbell lifts. And they are far less useful and far more dangerous.
What do you do if you don’t have access to kettlebells or dumbbells? Watch this video from Max at YouTube:
And watch this one:
I wonder how many people over the years have “broken” just about everything in the body using just about any tool, including bodyweight stuff (gymnasts for instance). Why was this article ever written. It’s like hey, don’t you know that brown-eyed people are superior to the blue-eyed freaks! Makes about the same amount of sense. Strange as well that so many informed chiropractors, physical therapists, and osteopaths are giving the green light for the ‘bells. Yes, there are NFL players using kettlebells. Go to Art of Strength and see Anthony Diluglio and the Tennessee Titans do some work. Did you also know that the number one job of a strength and conditioning coach at such an elite level is to…get ready…keep the players on the field (that means INJURY PREVENTION). Why would Gray Cook, a noted PT and founder of the Functional Movement Screen (used by many pro sports teams to reduce injury rates) be such a huge proponent of kettlebells? Guys, use what feels good to you and what delivers results that match your goals. In the end it’s all good and all tools can be used wisely or foolishly. Kettlebells aren’t magical but they are damned fun to work with. If bodybuilding is not your goal, but short and effective workouts and strength-endurance are high on your list. NOT A FAD, just a fun and playful tool. IF it ain’t fun, DON’T DO IT!
Uh, Erik I think it was written exactly because a lot of k-bell fanboys out there believe, and are themselves trying to brainwash everyone into thinking they are “magical.” The irony, and one of the points of this article, is that dumbbells, which have been around for much longer, are equal, and in many respects superior to what one can achieve with k-bells. This is not so much pumping up dumbbells, but taking k-bells down a deserved notch or two. If you can’t appreciate the validity of this argument, maybe you too have drunk the proverbial coolaid.
There is such a lack of counterpoint on k-bells, and so much over-hype, it really is like a cult.
interesting opinions, but only opinions. Like some smart guys on here said any tool can cause an injury. I have used them for years and it has helped alleviated me from connective tissue problems, and back pain. and has made me well stronger. All it is is different from the normal gym type exercises that have been hyped up far more and for far longer than kettlebells.
over time i reckon dumbells and gyms have notched up far more injuries than KB’s, and thrown a whole heap more marketing madness at us all. If you don’t like Kettlebells then quit your whining and go back to the gym. Kettlebells are probably more overly trashed because there is less money to be made than a costly gym membership. The Russians have used these for years and years, and what sort of reputation do they have, solid.. If you are reading this and getting confused about whether you should use them, then give them a try anyway and see if they are right for you, if not, try something else. But any exercise should be backed up with a good diet to strengthen your body and a careful and balance attitude.
kettlebells aren’t the problem, over training, over expectations and over marketing probably is. There is always going to be someone with a loud opinion to moan on about something. There are far more positive articles on the net, a conspiracy, no i don’t think so.
make your own mind up.
oh, and i will say this, i also injured myself with a kettlebell, i did my back in proper style. but in hindsight it was my fault. the kettlebell didn’t do it, i was an idiot. i lifted it badly. If i blame my kettlebell i should also blame my car for the wreck i had, my mountain bike for ”bucking” me off, that rock i bashed the other day on the beach, my bed for breaking my stubbed toe, and that climbing wall for maliciously skinning my shin. etc etc the list goes on. it was my fault. when will people actually take some responsibility for their actions eh.
James, I would not have bothered to post here, or “whine here” to use your language, if all I got was a little tweak in my back. It would strengthen your case if you were not simply quoting the brainwashing advice from the kettlebell books which have chapters saying “it’s your fault, you’re an idiot” if anyone goes there to seriously look up any injuries. Of course you’re correct that the kettlebell is inert. But the people who are not taking responsibility for their actions are not the poor suckers like me who end up in hospital after trusting the poor advice in the kettlkebell books/DVDs/forums. No, the people who need to actually take some responsibility for their actions now are the “idiots” to use your jargon…the idiots who recommend the 24 kg high rep snatch as a safe exercise. These are the same idiots who endorse the overhead juggling of 32 kg kettlebells (evidence linked to in my earlier posts above).
It is not just a freak coincidence that the only injury I received in 25 years of training was while honestly and carefully (and while on a very good diet mate!) following the advice on snatching in those poorly poorly researched kettlebell pamphlets that pass as books. Now, I am not blaming the inert metal ball with a handle for leaving my previously very strong left arm with a steel plate and 6 screws buried so deep inside it now that I can’t find a doctor willing to operate and remove all that gear yet. But I am not agreeing that I am the “idiot whose fault it is” either. I would never have thought of the stupid idea, by myself, of picking up a kettlebell and snatching it overhead repeatedly at speed…not a 24kg bell. That idea had to come to me from books/videos etc. The idea got past my radar man, slipped under my defences. Next thing I’d been conned successfully into thinking, hey, everyone’s doing it, it must be safe. So I snatched once a week, every week for 6 months. Sets of 8, smooth and easy, none of the signs of bad form such as bruises and pain in the forearm, which is all those lousily written kettlebell books mention as signs of bad form. I had fun for 6 months doing that. Then one day with no warning the bell just went through my arm. How was I to know that could happen, after 6 months of following the instructions and everything going great? There is no way I could have known. There was no warning on the forums, in the books or DVDs, that such an injury was possible. The authors of these instuctional materials have written to me since, saying THEY had never heard of such an injury, THEY did not know it could happen, THEY did not foresee it, ok man?. So who is the idiot? Me for trusting that the book I read telling me how to snatch, and it’s account of the “risk benefits” to quote a very good post by Ben Reynolds further up-page, was well researched? Or is it the fault of the idiot who wrote the kettlebell book that makes people think such a stupid unnecessary exercise is safe with a 24kg bell? The same kettlebell-book-writing idiot who endorses a website that teaches overhead juggling with the 32kg kettlebell (not that a 16 kg in the head wouldn’t be enough to brain damage someone). So when the next arm is broken, or the first head is cracked, you will be singing your wee song James, as you “whine” on, quoting your gurus, yelping that these injured guys are the “idiots” who “won’t take responsibility”. Meanwhile, the shysters who hype and market these stupid exercises will be off counting their cash, because they’ve brainwashed guys like you into thinking that ALL the responsibility is on the side of the trainer who falls for the bad advice…but of course NONE of the responsibility is on the side of the author who gives the bad advice that gets people injured. In 25 years training….the ONLY bad advice and the only injury came when I foolishly and sadly trusted the information in those kettlebell books. That’s not an “opinion” James, that’s experience talking, unfortunately. Eh?
You said… “one day I went to do a set and the bell broke my arm…at speed I lost control of it for a fraction of a second.”
^^^^^^^
You lost focus, you lost control, period. Just like when lifting any weight, you must stay focused 100% any time the weight is not at rest. In my job, if you lose focus, you will die. You failed, sir.
Don’t blame the tool son, blame the body.
Of course, you’re using condescension to make a point, but your point is incorrect.
Snatching a heavy kettlebell is not “just like…any weight“. As Olympic lifters learned a century ago, there’s a big difference between lifting a weight under control (“focus”) to develop max strength, and lifting it explosively to develop athleticism.
Early weight lifters abandoned fixed barbells (after many, many people broke their arms during the power clean and the snatch) in favor of Olympic-style barbells with rotating sleeves just as they abandoned kettlebells because of the danger, and because there were better alternatives.
The “tool” is inferior. There’s no reason to use a kettlebell — even for a kettlebell-style workout — if you have dumbbells. And there are plenty of reasons to avoid kettlebells.
Its time to realize now that most kbell manufactures design old stubby short handled kbells that we call “wrist wreckers” ..here is a few examples,york,canadian kettlebells and ziva all make 8-24kg wrist wreckers..Lucky for me my supplier got me the Tds long handles kbells..my 10 yr old son, my wife myself and judo clients here at my boot camp will choose these ones everytime over the stubbies…Steve maxwell has a line with longer handles as well…
this is the way to go people in conjunction with dumbells and ropes and rings boxes and sprint routines..Kettlebells are just one element to strength and fitnesss…not the holy grail alone..
Also I find once you get to 24 kg and up the stubby style is way less of a wrist problem however newer people to the sport wont find that out as they tend to quit after experiencing the hell of the stubby ..a 12 kg-16kg stubby is pure hell on the wrist’s-pretty much a torture devise at any skill level..the long handled 12-20kg range is quite the opposite..Not all kbells are created equal and therefore a value judgment needs to include this variable..
No, Jason.
Your post is just going to mislead people.
I used a “stubby” short-handled 16kg bell once, and I experienced that “hell on the wrist” you talked about.
It’s a real phenomenon, but of minor importance.
So I then used a long-handled bell (as long as they get, same dimensions as DD’s bells, I got mine from London Kettlebells and they told me the dimendsions were exactly the same)…long-handled 24kg bell. Snatched with it every week for 6 months, sets of 8, it was nothing but fun, no warnings of bad form like forearm pain or bruising from bad form…no, every week for 6 months I snatched that thing, sets of 8.
LONG-HANDLED BELL.
But then one day I did a snatch like usual, and the bell broke my forearm (see above posts by myself).
So, it is time for you to realize Jason, particularly if you’re taking on the responsibility of teaching this stuff to other people in bootcamps, that a short-handled bell may leave people with a sore wrist…but the long-handled 24kg bell you are RECOMMENDING to people can BREAK their forearm.
It is the radius bone that breaks, about one-third of the way up the forearm, when you use a long-handled bell and it goes wrong. And it usually takes surgery and metal plates, screws etc, in the arm to repair that damage (repair it to a degree, the arm will never be the same again, believe me).
There’s an orthopaedic surgeon, J P Driver-Jowitt, who has a website and is happy to answer emails: he will confirm for you that the radius bone is in a very vulnerable position at the top lock-out phase of a kettlebell snatch, when you use the LONG HANDLED bell. .
It’s amazing that you are putting yourself in the position of adviser and teacher, regarding equipment you do not understand the inherent dangers of.
Amazing…but absolutely normal nowadays…most kettlebell “instructors” are just as ignorant, just repeating what they have been taught, spreading the misinformation around (and often charging a fee to do so!)
Mr. Logan, I think it is commendable of you to come back repeatedly to either further clarify your statements or offer a rebuttal to an argument that has been proposed. I have taken your experience into consideration with my progress with kettlebells. I also completely agree with you, kettlebell juggling is stupid and completely dangerous if you are not a professional or have one watching you like a hawk. Even then you’re sitting there crossing your fingers that something doesn’t go wrong.
I want to come out and say I was “suckered” in by the kettlebell propaganda machine. I researched into it and thought “yeah, that looks interesting I’ll try it.” I do have an Olympic barbell and weights (I think it’s a 300lb set) as well as two standard weight sets that came w/ dumbbell handles. I used these for a while, but I didn’t find enjoyment from this type of exercise. Whether that was surroundings (my basement) or lack of a training partner (unsafe, I know) it just didn’t seem to be fun. I made some gains, but I stopped just because of the sheer boredom. When I heard about this whole kettlebell thing I was intrigued.
The main difference I could find on the internet that really locked it in for me to try was how it was sold. A full body, cardio and strength workout. Now I completely understand that a well designed traditional strength program can provide these same benefits, I still thought that I would give it a try. Like Mr. Logan I do not have access to an RKC, AKC, IKFF, etc. trainer and I’ve learned completely off of youtube and books. I’ve only been going at the kettlebell for maybe 3 weeks, none of which have been serious yet but hoping that will change once my real kettlebell arrives. Up to this point I am happy, the workout that I am getting to me seems like it will be beneficial, especially once I graduate past swings and figure 8s. The important thing is that I enjoy the kettlebell and am actually using it to work out with, so in that regards I’m more than pleased.
I have performed the apparently controversial snatch, and I can see how a heavy kettlebell such as the 24kg in question could break the arm, with or without proper form. I only use the equivalent to 16kg right now and I know I do not have proper form so I am not going to even attempt the exercise again until I meet some personal criteria in terms of swinging time as well as cleans and presses.
I do appreciate the author making comparisons between the two as sometimes if you are jumping headfirst into something a critical look is helpful with decisions. Your opinions of the kettlebell are obvious, but they seem directed at the kettlebell cult more so than the strengths/weaknesses of the kettlebell itself. No they aren’t a perfect tool, but neither is the dumbbell, barbell, pull-up bar, leg press, etc. and that is why a good strength training program incorporates a number of different machines and tools, the kettlebell is just another tool that can be added to this array of perfectly acceptable tools.
Opinions. You have to love them.
Man gets “hurt from kettlebell”. Man get’s “hurt from improper form during benchpress as well”.
Nobody argues that here in the states the true test of lifting , comes down to three lifts. The bench press. The deadlift. The squat. Note, not a single one of these lift’s is performed with a kettlebell. Reason why? I have never met a man who can bench press a 500lb kettlebell, or do any other the other lifts with them either. Reason why? Your comparing apples and oranges. If you hate kettlebells, don’t use them, but to say the don’t build strength, is just utterly stupid. I can use my fitness level as a platform to negate anything I dislike, and people might listen to me as well. I don’t know the author, as for myself, I am a Power Lifter. I am 6’5 and weigh 270lbs. I am now and always will be drug free. I do compete as an amateur athlete. I’m also 35 years old. I’ve been using kettlebells before there was a craze for them here in the states. I first started using them in th U.S.Army, 17 years ago. So, to say why don’t soldiers use them, I’m taking it the author has never been a soldier.
The truth is, use what works for you. Yes dumbbells, and barbells do wonders, duh! No one disputes that, but to say kettlebells don’t, based on what?
I bench 400 lbs, true a kettlebell will not help me improve my benching form, but it will help increase strength throughout my body. Which in turn, helps me lift more. Working out with barbells and dumbells usually work 1 muscle group, or a small secondary group. Bench, works pecs the most, with triceps secondary. Kettlebells do require more muscle groups when performing proper lifts, and throws. Science backs that, I don’t need a website to show you otherwise.
Both are great tools to build muscle. It all boils down to preferance. I use both, as well. I have to. The norm will always be what everyone else does. So yes, in your opinion Kettlebells are inferior to Dumbbells. I’ll stake all that i am against the author of this, that i lift more than you. I use Kettlebells to help gain size, again that holds just as much scientific merit, as dumbbells for size. As a cardio tool they are awesome. Not all people can run for cardio. Use what works for you. You can tell me where to go and how to get there. It won’t change the fact, that you really need to put up, or shut up.
Hi Adam. You wrote:
When I read a snide, unthinking statement like this, it makes me think that you don’t understand the difference between an opinion, and a judgement call based on the facts.
Allow me to enlighten you:
An opinion is the answer to a question which has no possible wrong answer.
For example, if I ask you ‘what is your favorite color’, I am asking you for your opinion. I can’t then turn around and argue with you and claim that you are incorrect. After all, all opinions are equally valid.
A judgement, on the other hand, can be correct or incorrect, and it’s dependent on the facts one uses to reach it.
For example, if I ask you what color car I should get, i am asking you to make a judgement. This is not an opinion, because the best color to paint a car varies depending on the climate, the cost, and several other factors. A resident of Las Vegas would be a fool to buy a black car, but someone in the Yukon might very well prefer a black car.
So now, perhaps you can understand why your argument (such as it is) fails. You can’t try to influence a discussion of the facts by claiming that all the facts therein are nothing more than meaningless opinion. …Unless you want to obviate your own contribution, of course.
The fact is: for various reasons I listed earlier, kettlebells are vastly inferior to dumbbells for skinny guys who want to add muscle mass.
Thanks for clarifying that for me. I didn’t know everything you posted was factual. I didn’t see any references for how you came to your conclusions. I will go back and look again. My remarks are no more snide than your apparent attempt to dumb me down. C’mon an not an idiot.
I too was once thin, a skinny guy, so I offer a different view of how to gain mass. Obviously there is more than 1 way to accomplish that. For you to say no there isn’t, then seriously whose the fool?
P.s.
The opinion I was refering to was the man getting hurt from using a kettlebell. To say he was hurt indeed was factual, to say everything he did up to and icluding the injury was all because of a kettlebell is opinion. The same thing would happen if a person using improper form was to lift a heavy dumbbell. people get hurt doing things, and lifting things that are above and beyond them. I wouldn’t attempt to lift a 225lb Kettlebell, although I’ve seen it done by a man smaller than I.
This has been covered completely already (see above, Adam)
It’s your opinion I was using improper form, but what do you base that opinion on?
How would I have been able to do a snatch workout every week for 6 months, with no forearm pain, and no forearm bruising, completely enjoying the workouts, if my form was improper?
How would I have been able to do workouts where I was doing 2 sets of 8 reps per arm, snatching the 24kg bell, if my form was improper?
Look to your own casually held opinions, Adam.
Read the comments above (your weight and height and how much you can lift has no relevance when it comes to whether you are RIGHT or not, which is the only issue at stake when you write your comment and hit the SUBMIT button.
Let me help you: one post up-page (not a post by myself) observes that, no matter how good one’s form, given the speed and weight involved in the snatch, plus the fatigue level where for instance a goal of 200 snatches in 10 minutes is pursued as per the kb manual…plus plain human fallibility…an ACCIDENT can happen…even with good form…AND THAT NOT EVERYONE IS WILLING TO PUT THEMSELVES IN THE WAY OF SUCH AN UNNECESSARY LEVEL OF RISK.
Again and again this point is made in posts up-page, by people other than myself…it is just not going into your head when you read what they are saying obviously.
“I have performed the apparently controversial snatch, and I can see how a heavy kettlebell such as the 24kg in question could break the arm, with or without proper form.”
(that last was quoted from Colt Chaffin’s post)
Finally Adam, you are implying (you have a sneaky way of not coming right out and stating yout “opinions” actually…they sort of come out of you sideways and a person could almost miss them) not only that my form was improper, but that lifting the 24kg was above and beyond me…
Again, what do you base that on?
I would never have had a happy 6 month period of snatching every week, with no pain, or injury, or bruising…I.e. NO SIGN OF WHAT WAS TO COME…if my form was “improper”, would I?
How could lifting the 24kg bell have been “above and beyond” me if I could clean and press it for sets of 6…snatch it for sets of 8…week after week after week…for several months, in total comfort?
What you are expressing here is far worse than “opinions. You have to love them”…….you are expressing “assumptions. YOU HAVE TO JUSTIFY THEM”.
Anything less is just sloppy Adam.
Be careful what you say next Adam, or it’s going to be absolutely plain to people reading this page later that you are not as much in command of the facts (never mind the opinions”) as you believe you are.
And by the way Adam, I have a name.
If you’re going to refer to me at all (I’d rather you didn’t, but you already have) use the name.
“the man” is a bit too generic for me to put up with, at the same time as the casual assumptions which you seem to think you have the right to launch my way.
So, justify your opinions Adam, or, where they concern myself, shut up about them.
“Opinions. You have to love them.
Man gets “hurt from kettlebell”. Man get’s “hurt from improper form during benchpress as well”.
You’ve now (belatedly) made it clear these comments applied only to myself.
My response?
Your comment is adequately dealt with and neutralised by several posters up-page whose entries you have obviously not bothered reading, or else you cannot understand what they said.
I bench-pressed for years. In the 80s, I taught dozens and dozens of people how to bench press. I was never injured. They were never injured.
I’ve trained for 25 years now.
Only one injury in all that time. From the 24kg kettlebell snatch.
That is the only point I’m here to make.
Read up-page.
Some people have been receptive to that point.
Anyway, I’m wasting time here…I can’t start smashing apart your position/stance/argument until you get back to me and tell me how you KNOW my form was improper, and how you KNOW I was lifting what was above and beyond me.
Otherwise, don’t mention me again here, whether as “the man” “he” or anything else.
Thomas,
Thanks for the reply. Look, I use this website, becasue I like the content of it. I don’t have to agree with everything listed herein, but I do respect the authors writings.
Adam
Adam,
Now, look up-page and you’ll find I’ve left you some replies.
I’ll add one more.
It is sort of predictable that you may go for the easy “oh, DUDE, your form like uhh must have been real bad man…it musta sucked…cos..uh…like..you know you broke your ARM DUDE! uh-huh huh”
Ok, rather than wait for you to come back with that one, I’ll hit it out of the park right now:
a) If I had broken the arm on the first day, or first week, or first month, then this argument would work. But for me to snatch happily every week with the 24kg, for 6 months, for sets of up to 8 reps, with no pain, no forearm bruising, an arm feeling GREAT…for me to be able to do that FOR SIX MONTHS EVERY FXXXIN WEEK…my form must have been pretty good.
b) There is no comparison, like you attempted to make, between the ballistic kettlebell snatch and the relatively slow and controlled bench press. The kettlebell snatch done with 24kg (as posters have said above) is a dangerous movement, even with good form…the danger is blunt trauma due to a moment of bad timing (which posters above have said can happen to anyone, no matter how good their form)…but I know you think you know better than them Adam…you have already implied that my injury was caused by improper form and me attempting what was “above and beyond” me.
c) In fact, what you are trying to do Adam, in a sort of sneaky indirect way, is make people believe that ONLY improper form and someone trying to punch above their weight can lead to a broken forearm from the 24kg kettlebell snatch. Even though several other posters above are acknowledging that NO-ONE can be sure of every rep being in perfect form every time…speed and momentum and timing don’t work that way…and it only takes ONE bad rep to absolutely ruin a forearm. You see, I believe people have the right to know this…that kettlebell snatches with 24 kg in people with good form CAN break your forearm IN A MOMENT OF ERROR. Some posters up=page obviously accept this. Some others, like you, obviously do not. The problem is, the kettlebell “community” have no real interest in warning people that the heavy snatch holds this unique danger, and it is unique. That is, the kettlebell snatch has a unique blend of speed, momentum, and potential for blunt trauma. The bench press does not have this. It is a relatively controlled movement, if you can do sets of 8 bench presses, week after week, month after month, in good enough form to get you by in comfort like I was doing with snatches…the bench press is not going to suddenly turn on you some-day and put you in hospital. Not unless you greatly increase the weight…which I did not do with my kettlebell….the weight that broke my arm was the same weight I’d pressed for 9 months by then…snatched for 6 months by then.
d) “To say he was hurt indeed was factual, to say everything he did up to and icluding the injury was all because of a kettlebell is opinion. The same thing would happen if a person using improper form was to lift a heavy dumbbell. people get hurt doing things, and lifting things that are above and beyond them. I wouldn’t attempt to lift a 225lb Kettlebell, although I’ve seen it done by a man smaller than I.”
As I have said, the kettlebell is inert. I am blaming the rotten and woefully inadequate kettlebell dvds/books (pamphlets) which I was dumb enough to trust…they made the snatch seem safe indeed. As I have said above, the “world kettlebell experts” said they themselves had NOT anticipated such an injury being possible…though some famous kb names you would recognise did write to me since and say they believed that there were many unreported injuries from kettlebells. These experts then tend to blame this on the faults of their rivals’ systems…rather than the kettlebell itself…or more specifically the 24kg kettlebell snatch…
Improper form…can’t be that…it was the same weight kettlebell I used for 9 months of training, so your analogy of suddenly trying a very heavy dumbbell and getting hurt is not applicable here…I was not hurt until the 9th month of training with the 24 kg bell, training that had only been enjoyable and successful up to that moment. That’s the definition of good form…as good as one can get…9 months of no-problem training…and it is my contention, all along it has been my only point, that in my 25 years of training, I never came across another excercise that could seem safe, seem mastered, and be fun….for 6 months of weekly workouts in the case of the snatch…but then suddenly turn on you like a snake.
But that’s what speed, weight and momentum, and repeated encounters with it, can leave you open to…
Read up=page Adam, and you’ll see some posters have decided its a stupid and unnecessary level of risk that they do not want to put themselves in line for.
That was very much the opinion too of the doctors and physiotherapists who tried to reconstruct my arm.
That’s why it’s so important that I don’t let you, or a few other people who tried earlier, fling this mud at me in an attempt to characterise me as “the guy” who had lousy form and judgement and hurt himself.
It’s not that simple (even if guys like you, and those kettlebell “gurus”, want to try to make out that it is, for some reason).
The gurus love to blame any injured “disciples”, training them to accept that if they are hurt “it’s their fault, not the teacher’s!”…….phewwww…..that trick must have worked well over the years to keep some bad teachers in business.
It’s obviously insane reasoning.
Sanity would lie in understanding that sometimes it will be the student’s fault ( as you are sure is the case with me, and you have stated so, and now you must account for how you know this?)…but that sometimes it will be the teaching that is faulty….and, of course, often it will be a bit of both.
I know there will be more injuries, because I know how fast and easily that bell went through my bone.
So I;m going to continue to put this warning out, no matter how many “snide, unthinking statements” I get from guys like you…but next time you throw out the B.S. ADDRESS it to me.
That’s what I mean about you being sneaky, the way you put things. You don’t think you’;re a sneaky guy? You want evidence? How about this? You were so sneaky in the way you flung the mud this time boy, Mr Urville WAS CONVINCED YOU HAD DIRECTED YOUR B.S. AT HIM!
It was B.S. you were shooting at my head, but you gave it that sneaky curve throw…putting so much spin on it no-one here could even tell who you’d aimed at.
Not even I was sure, until you confessed you’d been aiming at “the man getting hurt from using a kettlebell”…then I knew you meant me!
John Logan,
The comment about the “opinion” was indeed adressed to you. The article before was not. I stand corrected.
As far as throwing B.S. out there, I get it, you don’t like kettlebells either. A person looking to gain mass, a skinny person looking to gain mass, will seek any, and all ways to do so. Maybe we can all agree that training with weights, no matter what kind they might be, is only part of the solution. Nutrition, and rest being other factors. Everyone who is against kettlebells seems to despise them so much, atleast here on this forum they do. Doesn’t mean that everyone reading this will believe what I say, nor what was written. Hopefully they will read up and do what best suits them. Mr. Urville’s assesment on me was hey you don’t know fact from opinion. This website states what is written is opinion. Go to the main page and see for yourself. I never said i’m right your wrong. To anyone. I was making a point that bad form can cause an injury. Fine it didn’t for John Logan. But, it does happen. So take what i say with a grain of salt, apparently you will regardless of what i have to say. I’m sorry John Logan for hurting your feelings, I truly am. I was wrong to single out your injury. I train with kettlebells and I like them. I was once a skinny guy looking to get big, and kettlebells helped me get there. I never snapped my arm using them. I have seen terrible students get hurt bad for doing too much. I’m going off that. A person who repeats their workout time and time again, even with a small weight, can still get hurt very bad with improper form. If you think that’s BS, that’s your OPINION.
John, and Thomas,
After rereading what was posted by the two of you, I made a bad judgement call. It wasn’t John’s fault for getting hurt, nor do I think you were whining about your injury as another person had stated. I like kettlebells, and hopefully will never recieve an injury like john’s. I’m not trying to start a war with the two of you, and I admit your information posted is legit.
For people reading this, hey everyone is partial to something, I like what i like. I tossed my opinions out without getting the full story, I was blinded by my own arrogance. I am not a kettlebell guru, and I agree with John, the pamphlets are crap. I had an instructor, that’s how i learned. The information available dvd’s half assed books are a dime a dozen for training with kettlebells. People will find that’s the case for training with a lot of things. There are many mediums in which a person can work with to achieve there results, and there will always be debates as well. I got in over my head on this one, and stand corrected. This article offers a lot of great advice. To those I offended, I apologize.
Adam
Thanks for the kind words Adam.
This article attracts a ton of hate mail and ultra-rude replies from kettlebell people. And most of those people play the opinion card. I delete the replies if they’re too crazy, but I’m happy to have people post good counter-arguments here (if for no other reason that it helps this article rise in the search-engine rankings).
I think the only way I could get more angry replies is if we published an article linking squatting to knee injury or something.
Maybe you’ll be surprised to hear that I own a kettlebell website (which promotes adjustable bells), and I don’t want to be the poster boy for anti-kettlebell sentiment.
Nevertheless, I still think snatches, clean-and-press, and even swings are better with a good adjustable dumbbell. A lot of people think bodybuilding-style exercises are the only ones that work with dumbbells, but they just haven’t been exposed to other training methods.
Thomas,
Actually I’m not suprised that you own a website like that. I have read your E-zine articles elsewhere, and I’m aware your a boxing writer as well.
I wasn’t going to go toe to toe with you on the fact versus fiction. I know you know what your talking about, i didn’t see mindless jargon in the article. I do think as a power lifter that many people myself included look for all ways to build strength. Like I said before I was tall and skinny until i joined the Military. Being that body type, I always saw mass come so much more quickly for those who were shorter, and I looked to every means I could to reach my results. I use cast iron kettlebells, for the same reason i use cast iron dumbbells. I like the fixed weight. For the kettlebells I use 16, and 32kg. For the dumbbells I have from 10 lbs to 100 lbs in 5lb increments. For the lifting i do, it’s necessary for me. Adjustable dumbbells to me were just too time consuming. I realize there are lifts that shouldn’t be performed with kettlebells. I use mine for one arm snatches, and clean and jerks, once a week. I was using John Logans injury not to mock him, although I think that’s what I indeed did, but to say people can get hurt in lifting. I realize his injury must have been horrible. I wanted to make that clear, I wasn’t attacking his knowledge, and I didn’t mean to attack him directly.
I remember seeing KBs as a kid during my first trips to the gym–they usually sat in the corner collecting dust while 99.999% of the trainees did dips, chins, deadlifts and a variety of other barbell and dumbell exercises. Weight lifting kits from Weider and Laurie in the 60s, 70s and 80s included adjustable KB handles which no one used. (Find an old copy of Weider’s “Muscle Builder and Power” if you want proof.) I know I bought a used weight set at 13 and the KB handle was virtually brand new.
KBs were briefly regarded as a Russian secret weapon in the late 70s/early 80s when Vasili Alexeyev was seen in a photo using a KB. That lasted only a short time.
In the military, there were a few base gyms that had KBs but we never used them. When going through team qualification, we ran, did pushups, chins, situps and the instructors encouraged us to do some presses with weights along with ruck work.
Fast forward 18 – 20 years later and KBs began making a “comeback”. This is revival was started primarily by Pavel Tsatsouline, the same individual whose first book declared the only weights needed are a simple Olympic barbell set. Check out _Power to the People_.
According to a friend who was in the UK’s SBS (Special Boat Service), KBs were allegedly banned years ago by the British military because of the risk of injury.
If you’re able to use KBs injury free, I congratulate you. But, the truth is the Dragon Door forum is constantly filled with questions about injuries. Unfortunately, it is going to be 10 – 15 years before their efforts catch up with them and by then, it will be too late.
A friend who is 68 yrs young shared his secret to training with me: pushups, chins, planks and crunches, BW squats three – four times per week combined with walking & 20 – 30 minutes on a speed or heavy bag daily. He also became a near vegan, eating egg whites and fish three times per week. KBs? He remembered them from the “old days” and said even the legendary strongmen only used them for posing (they were empty “bells”) or partially loaded for shows. These strongmen learned of the injury issues associated with KBs early on.
As Dr. Doug McGuff, MD, recently wrote on his website with KBs it isn’t if but when an injury is going to happen when it comes to this exercise tool.
Safe training to everyone no matter what their choice.
Excellent reading on the subject:
http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_brennan_0103.htm
The author of the article, Ray Brennan, actually received numerous emails with threats and other vicious comments–so many, he chose to completely drop off the Internet and only correspond with a handful of select friends. Sad comment regarding the mindset on the ‘net these days along with the need to go that far to defend a silly exercise product.
Peter, thanks for the link.
I like that the author makes a valid point and does say that kettlebells are not utter crap and when used in conjunction with other weights can be beneficial. I agree 100% about the point of injury.
Can we all just agree that some people want to use kettlebells for whatever reason and others want to use dumbbells. I will always prefer the kettlebell as my preference.
Logan, I am sorry to hear about your injury. Stuff like that happens and I’m not happy with the fact that some of these kettlebell websites don’t post the fact that there can be injuries. But here’s one thing to consider, why would you say that the kettlebell is a bad thing when you hurt yourself? You did it for nine months “happily” and then hurt yourself so now it’s bad. I’ve used it for three years and work with a 50 lbs (I’m 160 by the way) and have never experienced an injury. I don’t throw the kettlebell over my head because it is downright STUPID!!!!! Let me tell you, I have heard about people hurting themselves doing benchpressing (which I don’t like because you have to rely on a spotter and you may get that one guy who is easily distracted…right when you need him to be focused (experience). There are some guys who have hurt themselves using the straight bar and yes, dumbbells. I’ve met plenty.
It would seem, Logan, that you are sensitive to the injury. If I had a time machine I guess I’d go back in the past to see what you had been doing that could have contributed to the incident or if anything warn you that in the future you could get hurt. Again, the people who promote the kettlebell and say how glorious it is and don’t give the time to explain how you can get hurt….well it disgusts me. But it should be noted that with ANY exercise device there is always that risk of getting hurt. What ever the tool may be.
Please don’t reference me to a virus as you did before. Your injury doesn’t mean that kettlebells are evil. Kettlebells had been around for several decades so you should know, that in Russia, they were NOT marketed like they are in America. As much as I love my country, I’ll say that the businessmen here have no consideration for guys like you who may get hurt over it.
I hope you have a save life and never have to go through any of that again.
-Sev
P.S.- Kettlebell Power to You….comrade.
I completely agree with the author. The way kettlebells flip in the air and pound and slam into the forearm while doing snatches looks creepy. Whatever happens to to the elbow joint and wrist’s tendons and ligaments? Nothing good. Also I would like to say a few things about pavel ‘tsatsouline’. I live in russia, you know. And I know for sure his last name should be spelled as TSATSULIN, and not ‘Tsatsouline’. There are certain rules of transcribing cyrillic alphabet names into Latin alphabet that the passport issuing agencies must follow. ‘Tsatsouline’ looks very odd. Seems like a some French like surname. They don’t write last names like that in passports in russia. Tsatsulin is a fake con man just as his last name. He touts his ‘master of sports’ title. Well, it’s nothing much actually. Everyone who wins a regional, that is state, championship gets the title. And see how many regions in russia with virtually little to none competition in various sports, kettlebell sport included. Besides you can easily buy anything in russia, included the ‘master of sports’ title and Institute of physical culture bachelor degree diploma that is touted by tsatsulin too. Concerning the spetsnaz hype by tsatsulin. There are various spetsnazes in russia. And most are some crappy SWAT like units in police city departments. Fat, poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly paid brutes they are. Which one spetsnaz did tsatsulin purportedly train? He says he trained a SOVIET spetsnaz. I highly doubt it. Tsatsulin was 21 year old in 1991 when the ussr ceased too exist. Too young to train anyone even crappy spetsnazes.
I checked and you are posting from Russia.
While I don’t want this page to turn into a debate about Pavel, it’s hard to avoid the fact that he’s controversial. I’ve heard rumors that his Russian accent is affected. I don’t know anything about it and it’s probably irresponsible for me to repeat it, but I’m sure that if he had known how successful his promotional efforts were to become, he’d have done some things differently. You can probably say that about most celebrities and public figures.
As to the credentials, what you’re saying seems accurate. I tell people all the time that if someone’s degree(s) were not issued by a fully accredited school, the degrees are not trustworthy. Accreditation of post-secondary institutions in the US is tricky enough. For non-US schools, it’s a nightmare. While this is a problem for medical and engineering degrees, it’s also a big problem for personal trainer-type credentials.
The Spetsnaz stuff is just vulgar. That sort of claim — that the master trained special forces and secret agents — is a standard claim used by martial-arts con-men for decades. It’s effective because it’s un-verifiable. Thankfully these sorts of Bullshido promotional techniques are no longer very effective for martial art con-men, because of the rise of MMA where actions speak louder than words. But the company that Pavel works for uses them very effectively to promote so-called kettlebell training.
Thomas,
I have to agree with you, I’ve been working out for quite abit of my short 43 years on this earth and i can honestly say i have tried most equipment out there; including KB’s my gym has them plus any free weights i.e. barbells, DB’s, KB’s and the new TRX slings. If anything out of my review for bodyweight exercises and you can afford them is the TRX slings and for a less expensive (depending on the brands) the free weights are great, if you can Mx-Fit the workout (i.e. TRX bodyweight + free weights) then you got a perfect marriage. Maybe i should submit a photo of how i look for this 43 yr physique and i never diet hehe and have been injury free for the longest time…I guess most people think i am a MMA fighter with the results…
Thanks yours truly,
Brian C.
Wow.
That’s what I first thought when I read your article. My heart hurt; I’m a student who’d just spent quite a bit on KBs and here I get someone telling me I shouldn’t have sold my DBs.
But I get your concerns. Your article states that KBs aren’t helpful for skinny guys who want to bulk up. However, I’m wondering what you think about its effectiveness for martial artists, specifically Wushu. I do Wushu, and if you search it on youtube you can see it’s mainly a performance art. There’re alot of speedy movements and high jumps, and from what I’ve done with the KB this past month I can really feel improvement in my Wushu. The key benefit is that I feel better at absorbing shocks. This helps me with my jumps, because we frequently have to land in a horse stance and that can really cause serious injuries like ACL tears. The KB has helped me in that area, as well as general fitness. Would you recommend I continue with it?
some stuff edited out by skinnybulkup
Right now I’m using rubber KBs, both for my 16kg and 24kg. I hope that means I have less of a chance of having the same injury you did. But thanks for letting kettlebell users know about this, because you’ve motivated me to be extra careful with the KB from now on.
Quote
End Quote
My recommendation is for you to figure out how professional athletes — those who make a living using their bodies — worked out and trained when they were younger, then base your workouts on the core principles they used to reach their current heights. Please note that this isn’t the same thing as saying you should train just like a pro.
I don’t have a problem with you using your KB for whatever you want, as long as you understand why you’re doing what you’re doing. If you start focusing on getting better with the KB, instead of on improving towards your original goals, than it becomes counterproductive.
In another post, you asked me to recommend a workout for you. I don’t prescribe workouts for people on the ‘net because everyone is different, and the most important part of fitness is tweaking your personal workout until you get the best results possible. The generic workout that you start with isn’t as important as the hand-crafted masterpiece that you (hopefully) end up with once you gain some experience. That, and I’m not expert enough to design something new.
Since I have been ‘attacked’ here as the guy teaching kettlebell juggling I feel the need to respond.
John Logan why have you never contacted me, instead attacking me and my name in various places across the internet?
You are the first and only one I have ever heard of breaking their arm with a kettlebell. That sucks for you. Sure kettlebells can cause injuries. So can weights. So can cars. So can sticks. So can virtually anything misused or just with a little bad luck. People get hurt all the time doing nothing.
I teach people kettlebell juggling. No shit there’s elements of risk involved. The moves I do are not for beginners. I do not recommend them for beginner’s. The potential for risk is there but I have never, not once, hurt myself in any shape or form kettlebell juggling. Some idiot can try to copy me off of the videos on youtube. He can also try to copy any number of dangerous stunts found online and hurt him or herself.
I’m not forcing anyone to pick up a kettlebell. I do not force anyone to juggle them. Those that want to can use my information to safely and productively get better at it and get the benefits kettlebells and kettlebell juggling provide.
As regards to the article on this site I love kettlebells and find most of the points above wrong. I train with them all the time, but not exclusively. I am in better shape, more muscular than I have ever been and injury free.
I’d like to help the “idiot” you refer to, the one who might copy your example of kettlebell juggling. I’d like to stop him getting his skull caved in. There’s no safe way to throw a 32kg kettlebell overhead repeatedly. Sooner or later, someone will end up dead or a vegetable because of that element of risk you acknowledge. Maybe someone with a family etc depending on him or her. Even if you regard such a person as an “idiot”, surely even idiots do not deserve that.
You are promoting the idea of overhead kettlebell juggling with heavy weight. This promotion can be seductive, especially when only a positive spin is put on the activity, it looks like a lot of fun, people can get the impression it is safer than it really is. Liability insurance may, sadly, protect you from any legal consequences when the first student turns up with a fractured skull/brain damage. But that will not mean that the juggling was a good idea, or that you have no true responsibility for any damage done by the idea you promoted.
Tsatsouline should not have endorsed your website.
He is old enough to know better, though this does not seem to aid his judgement.
Tell me, did you rail against the show Jackass because people would emulated that and got hurt?
Do you protest outside the circus because someone might emulate their dangerous stunts?
I know a guy the broke his arm riding his bicycle recently. In fact I’ve hurt myself on numerous occasions doing so. Do you get up in arms with the bike manufacturers about their liability in producing ‘dangerous’ equipment.
“You are promoting the idea of overhead kettlebell juggling with heavy weight.” You seem to be stuck on the overhead thing. The fact is few of the moves go overhead, the majority are out front or to the sides. I show progressions where people can work up to the overhead moves, if they choose.
“There’s no safe way to throw a 32kg kettlebell overhead repeatedly.” I’ve done it, so have my students, if they go that heavy, so I obviously there is a safe way.
You hurt yourself with kettlebells (snatching not even juggling) and you feel its your mission to protect everyone from them now?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVS1sVn5bjI
There is plenty of high, overhead, heavy kettlebell throwing in the above link of yours Mr Christopher.
The bell is not in control. Observe the fumbled catches, and the force with which it hits the deck just beside feet.
Putting aside the risk of brain damage or skull fracture, are you aware that the human foot cannot always be repaired after crush injury? I have read accounts on bone injury forums of years of agony after foot injury. One was by an ex-soldier who could find no relief from the constant foot pain four years after the kind of crush injury that very nearly happens in the above video. There are bones in the human foot that cannot yet be successfully repaired if smashed.
“Quick feet are happy feet,” is Tsatsouline’s answer to this on his Enter the Kettlebell video, but obviously that is no answer at all.
The “Jackass” TV show contains its warning in the title; likewise, the circus is well-known to be the domain of only the highly -skilled performer. “Don’t do this at home” is the caveat and everyone knows it.
The kettlebell phenomenon, and its worst instance is the overhead kettlebell juggling, misleads people into believing that it IS safe for people to do this stuff at home. You are selling DVDs teaching people how to do it, and here you are above, stating that it can be done safely. The sheer number of your videos on Youtube and elsewhere, and the way websites (part of the ever-growing kettlebell community of inter-feeding business relationships) will host your content and put ONLY a positive spin on it, never bothering to emphasize the dangers, means that people will pick up the idea that kettlebell juggling is safer than it really is.
Sooner or later, this will lead to someone being seriously injured or killed. If anyone thinks this is an exaggeration, please watch the video linked above and consider the weights and speeds involved. If you are still in doubt, show the video to a doctor specialising in brain trauma and ask his opinion of what he sees in the video.
You and your students do it safely you say. Safely so far. Safely until the first serious injury or death.
On The World’s Strongest Librarian website you state in a guest post on kettlebell juggling:
“And if you want to have true mastery of a kettlebell of a given weight, its not enough to be able to do a hundred snatches. Think that’s hard? Try flipping it over and around your shoulder and other even more advanced kettlebell juggling moves.”
So you are promoting this dangerous activity to the average reader and trainer, you are encouraging them, and for business reasons.
I haven’t seen all your Youtube videos which you say an “idiot” may copy. I have seen about 10 of them. They all contained some overhead work. They all contained some missed catches.
Is it my mission to protect everyone from kettlebells?
Someone ought to be doing it. Mostly I’m busy doing other things.
It’s not the kettlebell at fault, it’s the lousy information, and worse, the overwhelming positive hype that leaves people thinking what is not safe is safe.
As someone else says up-page here, it is disgusting to see training principles marketed strongly at an unsuspecting, unprotected public (the “idiots” as you refer to them)…without any serious warnings accompanying the training information.
Monkey see, monkey do, but is it the monkey’s fault if he’s had some guy internet-marketing an idea at him, and he’s started to get caught up in the hype, and he starts believing that yeah, overhead kettlebell juggling with a 32kg bell must be really cool and safe, that dude Logan Christopher’s doing it, and he’s making posts on websites saying there’s a safe way to do it every time, and look, there’s a hundred videos on Youtube of him doing it and gee he only drops the bell sometimes and it hasn’t split his head open or crushed his foot yet, it must be safe…and look, there’s that website I trust, The World’s Strongest Librarian and gee, there’s that guy Logan Christopher guest posting about kettlebell juggling and look, Josh Hanagarne and everyone on this website says it’s really cool, no injuries mentioned here, and they say this dude Logan is really strong, and he says, this guy Logan, snatches aren’t enough, I gotta be able to flip it around my shoulder and do other even more advanced stuff, well Logan says it so this juggling is what I really want to do too now and I will!
Only thing is, the poor sucker doesn’t know you’re calling him an “idiot” if he copies one of your videos.
By the way, a 16kg bell coming down with momentum is enough to crack open the average skull…I’m only emphasising the fact that you are doing demo videos with a 32kg to illustrate just how far from common sanity this new wave of training has travelled now.
Only an “idiot” would copy you off Youtube?
You’re actively out there on the internet, trying to drum up business, new recruits to the juggling, you’d love it if it became a craze you could cash in on which means more and more people copying the example you are promoting.
And screw anyone whose head gets busted open in the process, cos that proves they musta been “idiots”.
Time will tell who the idiots are.
The right warning at the right time can serve to protect.
People do not know the risks always. They might be caught up in overwhelmingly positive marketing hype that does not emphasize the risk element.
I’m not trying to stop anyone doing anything.
I certainly did not know, when I was doing my weekly snatch workouts for 6 months, that the kettlebell snatch could break my arm in half one day without any warning. Tsatsouline has said that he did not know this was possible either.
This proves that you are wrong: people do not know the risks, not even the “teachers”.
That video you linked to was a performance from two professionals. That show was for entertainment purposes. You see all those people watching. I’m guessing not one went out and tried kettlebell juggling. I put the video up for my customers and subscribers who are interested in seeing what can be done and may like to work up to that level if they choose to.
I concede that I should have warnings on my videos. Forgive me for thinking the risk is obvious, and a warnings not needed. Forgive me for thinking people should have personal responsibility. The truth is that a warning would likely get people more interested, and drum up more business, so thanks for the idea.
Anyway it’s not like I haven’t talked about the dangers before. Specifically from my site:
http://www.kettlebelljuggling.com/blog/kettlebell-injuries/
You seem to be hung up on this “idiot” thing. I did not mean anyone who copies me is an idiot. Poor wording on my part if it came across that way. BUT if someone copies me and somehow thinks that the kettlebell couldn’t hurt him or her if they hit their head or foot with it, then yes, maybe that person may not be playing with a full deck. Do you think a warning sign would really deter such a person?
And if someone can go straight into juggling a 32kg bell (which by the way I rarely use, maybe in two of my videos) all the more power to them. There is something called progressive training. One to be able to lift that heavy weight, which most out there couldn’t even do, and two to have the skills and power to juggle it overhead.
By the way “Quick feet are happy feet” came from Jeff Martone not Pavel. He teaches kettlebell juggling too. Have you attacked him lately? Do a search for kettlebell juggling and you’ll find tons of other videos from other people. Forgive me for producing a DVD set that shows people how to do it safely and progressively. You’re right, I must not care if anyone gets hurt doing this. I’m heartless and cruel, and only about the almighty dollar.
What happened to you was a freak accident, assuming it happened as you said it did. Do you have weak bones? Osteoporosis? Look I feel for you. I’ve had broken bones too. Broke my knee on the school yard. Ban recess, it’s dangerous (oh wait they’re actually trying to do that.) I had my nose broken in a mosh-pit many years ago. No one told me that was dangerous. I should have sued shouldn’t I?
You can’t look at the outliers, the long tail, to examine the effectiveness of anything. You rail against kettlebells yet there are many, many people using them in all different ways, getting great results in improvements in strength, conditioning, skills, body composition and more.
Are they for everyone? No. Is there tons of hype surrounding them? Sure. But are they actually effective and safe when used correctly? For the majority YES!
I just talked to a strongman the other day who dropped some weight plates on his foot, crushing it. Better get youtube to pull down all weight training videos online, lest someone hurt themselves.
I suppose I can’t leave this statment unchallenged, since the major point of the article is that kettlebells are less safe and less effective than dumbbells, and there’s virtually nothing you can do with a kettlebell that you can’t do with a dumbbell.
Despite the “history of kettlebells” baloney promulgated by marketing experts like Pavel, et al, kettlebells were not some secret training device used by ancient Russian ur-athletes.
Rather, they were the original “adjustable weight”: hollow metal spheres filled with varying amounts of lead shot; and they didn’t have anything at all to do with Russia. These bells were an improvement over cast-iron trading weights, because they offered adjustability which is the best way to introduce progression into a training program. Plus, they had a decent handle that was made from forged steel (unlike the thick, cast-iron handles on many of today’s so-called ‘kettlebells’).
Back then, the only thing that even superficially resembled “kettlebell competition” were Scottish highland games, in which athletes threw trading weights. That, and some strongmen who practiced lifting feats and tricks with true, hollow kettlebells as a gambling gimmick.
It wasn’t until later, in the Soviet Union, that the inaccurately-named solid-metal ‘kettlebells’ (unlike hollow spheres, they’re not true bells, after all) were mass produced. The poor Soviets couldn’t afford anything better. These awful training devices came complete with ungainly, thick handles and the extremely limited range of different sizes still found in many of today’s lines. Unfortunately, marketing experts like Pavel still try to convince gullible newbies that these drawbacks are actually “features”.
The West, meanwhile, had abandoned kettlebells (and fixed-weight and/or hollow barbells) decades prior, as soon as adjustable dumbbells, weight plates, and barbells with rotating sleeves began to be cheaply mass-produced and widely distributed. Once athletes got their hand(s) on adjustable dumbbells, there was no need for kettlebells, because dumbbells are superior in every way.
Athletes found that any speed exercise — like the snatch, the clean, and assistance moves like the high pull — are best performed with a rotating-sleeve barbell. Doing them with dumbbells (or, heaven forbid, a kettlebell) is less effective (and in the case of kettlebells, much more dangerous). This has been known for a century or more; it’s a shame that the facts get buried under mountains of marketing hype.
Furthermore, strength athletes knew that kettlebells were basically worthless for bulking up, because:
Since there’s nothing you can do with a kettlebell that you can’t do better and more safely with a dumbbell, kettlebell hypesters resort to muddying the waters regarding “kettlebell training”. They claim that exercises like the snatch, clean and press, swing, etc. were secret inventions developed by ancient kettlebell-toting warriors (or some similar baloney).
Those claims are, of course, hogwash.
These exercises are speed exercises that have been used by Olympic-style lifters for as long as anyone’s cared to keep track of such things, and until recently, they had absolutely nothing to do with kettlebells. Ironically, the exercises are much more effective (and safer) on proper equipment than they are with kettlebells. And, with the invention of rotating-sleeve dumbbells, it’s possible to do single-arm, unilateral speed work (like dumbbell snatches, for instance) with much more safety than when using a kettlebell, and without the long period of flexibility training needed with olympic barbells. Additionally, because of adjustability, you can keep the reps low (which is where they belong in exercises like the snatch or the clean).
So, when you say kettlebells are “effective and safe” you’re wrong. They’re less effective and less safe than modern weight-training equipment. While this doesn’t mean you’ll automatically destroy your body the second you pick up a ‘bell, it does mean there are better, cheaper, safer alternatives readily available.
(Just between you and me, Logan Christopher, I congratulate you on finding the one thing for which kettlebells are better suited than dumbbells: juggling and throwing. I don’t have a problem with you or your pasttime.)
Dumbbells are better for most standard weight training exercises for some of the reasons you stated. I don’t agree with everything, like “The off-center balance point strains the wrist during presses and “pushing” movements”. If you know how to hold a kettlebell, unless its too big, this is not at all a problem. You also state in your article that a kettlebell clean is unweildly. I would much rather clean and hold a heavy kettlebell than a dumbbell.
Kettlebells do offer one unique benefits for the ballistic exercises you mentioned, the swings, cleans, and snatches. The off-set mass actually makes the exercise more effective. And yes, there are benefits to doing high reps in these moves, which the kettlebell allows you to do more of.
I understand your purpose of this site is for helping people to gain mass. Are kettlebells the best tool? No, although they can be used for it. Are barbells and dumbbells better? Yes if used properly. Every tool has its advantages and disadvantages. I’ll use all the tools to get all the advantages.
You neglect one main part in the article. Most people find kettlebells fun. People that may not train otherwise can have good success with kettlebells.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIFQlWP-xMA&playnext_from=TL&videos=wdehRinnnk4
Hello Logan:
My angle and interest here is focused solely on UNNECESSARY risk and the consequences. I do not believe the true risks are generally known.
For instance, you say:
“What happened to you was a freak accident, assuming it happened as you said it did. Do you have weak bones? Osteoporosis? Look I feel for you. I’ve had broken bones too. Broke my knee on the school yard. Ban recess, it’s dangerous (oh wait they’re actually trying to do that.) I had my nose broken in a mosh-pit many years ago. No one told me that was dangerous. I should have sued shouldn’t I?”
Your statement shows that you hold many false preconceptions.
No, I did not have weak bones or osteoporosis. I was 41 and as strong as a xxxxing horse when the snatch broke the arm. 24 years of bodyweight training had made sure of that, including slow one-arm pushups touching chest to floor each rep, I’d been doing them since 1993, record was 18 in a row, highest lean bodyweight was 230 pounds (down to 210 pounds when I was 41, 6 foot tall, 46 inch chest, 15 inch arms, 36 iuch waist etc…I have to give all this detail to offset the brittle-bone, fragile bone case that sometimes comes up when I dare report this injury.) Believe me, if I had a bone condition it would have been diagnosed at the hospital. Also, my bone healed (around the 6 screws and steel plate left in the arm) so fast and well after the operation that one doctor remarked on it at the 3 month point, shaking his head and laughing, unable to find any sign on X-ray that the bone had ever been broken, I could do 5 full-range slow two-hand pushups again by then at a chubby post-op 228 pounds (mostly caused by fluroquinolone toxicity after operation, a big unreported problem in itself).
http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=19537&name=CIPRO&page=1
(Now, if I report other side-issues like that, you;ll accuse me of hypochondria..but I’ll take my chances, the fluoroquinolone toxicity is another complication of the nintitial injury, another risk factor, and I am trying to reveal the true risk factors, the fact is I hadn’t been to a doctor for decades (two of them) before this injury, hadn’t taken any drug or med in that time either apart from one dentist-precribed antibiotic in 1996).
OK…
a) I do not want you or anyone else to “feel for me”, that is not the reason I posted.
b) I would not be bothering to report a broken knee or nose that would heal in 6 weeks or so. What I am reporting is an injury that seems to be out of all proportion to what people generally would perceive as possible from snatching. The top link in this post is to the exact operation (not my own, but the same break and repair I needed) I had to have to fix the job done by the kettlebell snatch. Also, if my arm was back to anything like normal 15 months later I would not be “complaining” (what I am actually doing is warning anyone else who may be on the same road I was on, OK?) but after 15 months I can’t do a pullup, and the arm is at about 30 per cent of what it was and it’s filled with 6 screws and a steel plate, not ideal…or comfortable…it doesn’t have the strength or feel of a normal arm if I try to train it now…
Do people have a right to know this can happen just from a kettlebell snatch? I say they do.
You do not have to have brittle bones or osteoporosis for this to happen.
Must be bad form then, you will say.
Well, I keep having to repeat myself because the accusations are always the same. I had been training in all sorts of ways for 24 years before the snatch broke the arm. I was a weight training instructor in the 80s. I was never injured in 24 years, no-one I ever trained was injured. I always emphasized good form.
The Enter the Kettlebell book said start with a 16kg bell, if average; or a 20 kg bell if you bench press over 200 pounds; I could do full-range one-arm pushups at 210 pounds bodyweight so I started with the 24kg bell. Could easily press it right away. Did sets of 6 cleans and presses per arm. Spent 3 months working on the high pull, before doing the first snatch. A careful strategy, no?
Then worked up to workouts where I did 32 snatches (8 left, 8 right, 8 left, 8 right). Only ever used the 24 kg bell, from start to finish. I did a snatch workout once a week for 6 months. Loved every workout. Had no signs of bad form that the ETK book warned of. I had no forearm pain, no bruising, the training felt great.
Then, after 6 full months of doing snatches once a week, I went in my garden on April 4 2009 after warming up thoroughly with cleans and presses, high pulls…I did first rep of a set of snatches, felt great…did 2nd rep and the bell broke my arm in half…why was that rep different than the hundreds of other snatches I did weekly for 6 months before hand?
I do not bloody know. I wish I did.
So since then I have posted, sometimes (maybe 0.00001 per cent of my actual time, to warn others in case this happens to them).
And I have received great abuse for my troubles, Mr Christopher.
What was a very strong arm is now, relatively, a piece of junk…and this is worth it to have had the kettlebell fun? No.
If I had known this could happen I would not have used a kettlebell.
Now, I have been much-attacked for making statements like that, so let me explain.
I, personally, could not afford this injury, because of serious business and family responsibilities. I could go into more detail about that here, but why should I have to?
I researched kettlebells thoroughly for a year before buying one. There was no info out there that you could break your arm with one (the reason for that is clearer to me now, I have tried to post short, non-angry accounts of my injury on sites ABOUT kettlebell snatch injury, or general kettlebell injury, just to give people a heads-up, only to have those posts deleted/never published…this has happened repeatedly…negative reviews on websites (the websites I had trusted and believed when I read nothing but positive accounts) also deleted…even negative comments on Youtube vids (only negative in that I state I broke my arm snatching) deleted…so this shows me something is wrong here, I am only trying to warn other people who are snatching and do not know they are in line for such potential risk, but my attempts are blocked.
I am told everyone knows of the risk. That is not true.
Even Tsatsouline said he did not know of this risk, not until I reported what had happened.
I’ll give him credit for one thing, he did not imply I was lying as you have done. He must have had the wisdom to recognise the ring of truth in my account.
Since you cannot do that, then I suppose all I can come up with as proof would be to get the witness to the accident to post here, and maybe there are 4 people with computers who have seen the arm after the injury, maybe they would not mind posting.
But they are friends, so why would you believe them?
And why would I wan tto inconvenience them by asking.
My doctor is certainly too busy to post here…he was almost too dxxn busy to see me.
Nothing would actually prove a dxxn thing unless there was a photo of the exact moment the bell went through the arm and there is not.
There are dozens of other accounts on this webpage alone of injury from kettlebells. Are you going to go through their posts and ask them for proof also?
To Hxll with that son.
“That video you linked to was a performance from two professionals. That show was for entertainment purposes. You see all those people watching. I’m guessing not one went out and tried kettlebell juggling. I put the video up for my customers and subscribers who are interested in seeing what can be done and may like to work up to that level if they choose to.”
Anyone on Youtube can find the vid and copy what you do…and for that matter, the “professionals” fumble a hxll of a lot of catches causing heavy belle to smash into the deck don’t they?…where they do catch, it often looks far far from smooth…one catch looks like it could esily rip a vertebrae, hand reaches so far forward to pluck the bell back…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVS1sVn5bjI
I can’t believe no-one else is commenting on this, in order to protect the unwary who don’t notice such detail…or know about spinal/foot vulnerability to serious injury…
I just think that, like the snatch, it’s a very stupid idea to promote and put in people’s heads. But, to Hxll with it, at 43 this year, I’m probably a dinosaur who just doesn’t understand what’s going on any more…
“I concede that I should have warnings on my videos. Forgive me for thinking the risk is obvious, and a warnings not needed. Forgive me for thinking people should have personal responsibility. The truth is that a warning would likely get people more interested, and drum up more business, so thanks for the idea.”
I love all this advice on personal responsibility.
I don’t think you, or half the people who use that term, even know what it means.
Are you taking personal responsibility for promoting a practise that could get someone killed, or vegetabilised?
I said it above: monkey see, monkey do.
People WILL copy what you are doing…as inevitable as night following day to quote WS.
And as you said above, you should have warnings on your videos.
The exact wording of the warning would be interesting.
You would not want to say “Do not try this at home” as that would be bad for business.
How are you going to word it? Remember, you have to protect yourself from any responsibility (PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY) should any “idiot” get himself injured or killed following your training advice…and yet you have to make a living…hmm, difficult.
“Anyway it’s not like I haven’t talked about the dangers before. Specifically from my site:
http://www.kettlebelljuggling.com/blog/kettlebell-injuries/”
It’s about proportion. How much time spent encouraging others to do as you do; versus how much time spent reminding them it could get them killed (and you’d always have to remember to put in extra wording for the “idiots”…maybe they have wives and kids depending on them etc)
“You seem to be hung up on this “idiot” thing. I did not mean anyone who copies me is an idiot. Poor wording on my part if it came across that way. BUT if someone copies me and somehow thinks that the kettlebell couldn’t hurt him or her if they hit their head or foot with it, then yes, maybe that person may not be playing with a full deck. Do you think a warning sign would really deter such a person?”
It is more the case that, after months of years, of being subjected to positive hype, and injury potential being minimised, they end up with a false idea of the activity’s safety, or objectively true risk level. They have been told a false story, a lie. Not so much that individuals are “not playing with a full deck”; more the case that a few cards have been hidden from the deck.
Let me explain:
a) A person can only make a judgement whether an activity is safe for them, or its risks are acceptable, if they are given full disclosure and the true facts.
b) I know the kettlebell community suppresses data about injury
c) I know this because when I tried to report my injury I was called a liar, a whiner, I was told I should be ashamed to report such an injury if it did happen. Then my posts were deleted. This happened on not one website, but most of them.
d) You know this already Logan, in the kettlebell community the rule is, if you get hurt it’s your fault. If you report the injury, it is like trying to tell a girl’s lock-room, they chant “idiot” at you until you go away, if you don’t go away they just delete your info. Does one really want to take training information/advice from people like this? I regret deeply that I did.
“And if someone can go straight into juggling a 32kg bell (which by the way I rarely use, maybe in two of my videos) all the more power to them. There is something called progressive training. One to be able to lift that heavy weight, which most out there couldn’t even do, and two to have the skills and power to juggle it overhead.”
With all that at stake, do I think the kettlebell snatch is a safe exercise? No. The damage it cam do is not in proportion to the use or fun of the exercise.
That has only ever been my single point.
For anyone like me, who cannot afford unnecessary risk for one reason or another.
I should think it’s obvious that this (from my perspective) goes one-hundred-fold when talling about kettlebell juggling, particularly heavy, and particularly overhead, is involved.
Am I speaking for, or to, a minority?
Of course, I absolutely accept that.
But the minority needs representation also, Logan.
The minority for whom kettlebell snatching, or juggling, is not safe and NOT worth the risk.
Does that minority need a warning?
Well, obviously I could have used one.
For the lack of a warning that the kettlebell snatch could break my arm, I picked up the first serious physical injury of my life…one which is not over, 15 months later (there is no knowing the potential health sequelae/implications from leaving steel plate and screws inside someone for the rest of their life…some doctors think it causes cancer, immune diseases, infection, metal toxicity in organs……on the other hand I am informed trying to remove the metal from my forearm could result in permanent loss of use of my left hand)…
Do people not have a right to warning that a kettlebell snatch could cause that level of harm to someone who previously had been strong and healthy (and successful and useful to their family and friends, not “an idiot”) for 41 years?
And remember, I had been a teacher of weight training, I still know people now who I trained 20 or 25 years ago who can’t believe this happened to me BECAUSE I was no idiot, and very careful.
If a kettlebell snatch can do this to me, what can heavy over-head kettlebell juggling do to someone this year or next, or the one after?
I did not intend to attack you personally.
It was your videos I kept running into on Youtube, not Jeff Martone’s, so I wrote about you.
If I ran into Martone’s, I would be writing about him, as honestly as I can.
John Logan
“the major point of the article is that kettlebells are less safe and less effective than dumbbells”
You answered the point about effectiveness, Logan.
You said absolutely nothing about the issue of safety.
You’d be shocked at some of the weights the guys snatch at the club with a barbell. One female can do close to 90kg and she’s less that 65kg herself. But she didn’t learn that from a book or DVD or youtube. One to one with progression is essential. But we get injuries even with that. They know the risks they signed consent forms which if course you don’t need with a book or DVD. A book or vid could never replace a hands on trainer.
I don’t think I would want to remove youtube videos on kettlebell juggling. Not because I don’t think it is dangerous (I don’t really have an opinion) but more because of the freedom of expression and exhibitionism of mankind – blimey mate I’ve gone all philosophical! Time to go and do some weight lifting and exercise that rite.
No more from me
Jamey
People can warn about the ‘possible’ dangers of of kettlebells and try to put people off, and then up jumps law of unintended consequences -if you tell somebody not to do something or warn of the dangers you are actually encouraging more people to do it. There is no such thing as bad PR afterall.
John: Your intentions may have been good ones, but in doing so you are actually encouraging more people to take up and try kettlebell juggling. So of course you can continue to argue – it’s good PR for kettlebll juggling and I’ll try and get some PR for olympic lifting at the club – actually we have waiting list (or is it weighting lift)
Hey guys,
I think this article is quite reactionary to the recent hype of kettlebells. However, there are some points I agree with, though it is badly researched and has many bold statements that can be challenged (e.g. kettlelbells have limited amount of movements) Surely, it’s similarity with dumbbells means it can be used for renegade rows, rows, high pulls, lunges, clean and press, SOTS press, floor press etc
I use kettlebells and dumbbells (well more barbells these days), to be honest I’m actually a huge fan of kettlebells, but for people really interested in massive gains in mass/ strength conventional weights seems to be the easier approach. Mainly because the program can be fairly rigid and increasing weight (providing you do not plateau) is steady.
However, after going to kettlebell classes, I see that much of the marketing for kbs is over hyped. But the approach for using kbs as a tool for improving fitness or “work capacity” is much easier for people who may struggle with dbs and bbs. I should point out I use more of the “soft” style of kettlebell training.
The kettlebell clean is much more easier than a barbell or dumbbell clean. Now I have used both competition kettlebells and cast iron ones. To the gentleman who broke his arm with the snatch, some cast iron kbs are NOT designed for the snatch or even the clean. They were made by companies trying to cash in on the hype, and is really a tool for the kb swing. I know! Because I always get a bad feeling when I snatch my 20kg cast iron, also technique wise there are ways to prevent a kb smacking into your arm. In competitions people can corkscrew the kettlebell up during the snatch.
I think for people interested in kbs, I would suggest find a class for it. There’s things like a shoulder press, in which for kbs the press is just vertical unlike military presses. Or for overhead squats, windmills, anyhows etc you don’t have to worry about the kb falling (as long as the weight is moderate) as the handle will prevent it, unlike dbs and bbs which has much more of a grip element.
Also, compared to the Olympic lifts, kb “lifts” are very accessible for people. The flexibility and power for a barbell snatch is difficult, but the coordination required is staggering. I think for people who wants to start bulking kbs are an option, but as their strength progresses bbs and dbs are much more appropriate protocols e.g. I wouldn’t get two 50kg kbs just so I can squat 100kg that’s more for barbells!
different tools for different goals. But preference to a tool and the ability to adhere to a training program will override the disadvantages of the tools.
One last point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK_vV32N6-Y
yes what he does is dangerous and silly, but it does look quite fun!
And for those not familiar with kettlebells, he uses the hollow steel kettlebells for competition, so the size of the bell stays the same with the heaviest I’ve seen being 64kg, and the lightest is 8kg. So the technique is generally the same throughout progression
Has anyone ever had the ball part of a KB fall off of the handle? I’m curious, because I’ve had at least three (non ajustable) DBs fail on me, where the head came off.
Kettlebell handles are integral to the whole thing — ‘bells are cast out of one piece of cast iron. There’s no way the handle can fall off unless there is some flaw in the metal.
Cheap kettlebells have such thick handles because if they were any thinner, they might crack off when the ‘bell is dropped (especially if a weak spot formed in the metal during casting). Thick handles are a limitation imposed by the manufacturing process, not a “feature”.
Some expensive kettlebells have thinner, forged handles that are welded to the base. I suppose those might fall off if the weld fails somehow.
I can appreciate the author challenging the benefits of kettlebell training with regards to skinny kids trying to “bulk up”, though I think the approach is a misguided one.
One of the frustrating things about teaching people to use kettlebells is that you must learn how to properly use kettlebells and master the basics first. Many want to rush into complex movements like the snatch without building the necessary basic conditioning, flexibility and skillset.
This is the dumbbell equivalent of working out with weights that are too heavy for incline press (or any press for that matter) on your first day of working out without even using a spotter. You are asking for injury by doing this, but someone who has never used a dumbbell or lifted weights wouldn’t know basics like to use a spotter on heavy weights, and not to use that much weight when starting out in the first place (for example) or how to execute the proper form on the lift (leading to overuse or strain/sprain type injuries).
Yes it takes skill to use kettlebells but even dumbbells (and any strength training tool for that matter) do.
A lot of the things that are mentioned by the author as negatives of kettlebells (wrist strain on the clean, blisters/calluses on the hands from snatches, banging the forearms on snatches etc.) are things that, if taught to use kettlebells properly, are “textbook” when it comes to being addressed for the first-time user. I haven’t had a blister/excess calluses in some time (dumbbell users can get calluses as well), because I take care of my hands (as instructed) and have built up the appropriate muscle/grip endurance before jumping into the more difficult exercises. (kettlebell training focuses primarily on muscle endurance). The problems mentioned in this article are textbook problems of someone who has not practiced the basics before going into the more advanced drills. Trying to “walk before you crawl” in regards to strength training- in this case, kettlebells.
While bodybuilding tools like dumbbells are great for building big “bulky” muscle, they don’t do anything for your cardio; if you are a basketball player or football player for example, even if you do a lot of workouts with dumbbells to build big muscles, they are basically useless on the court or field without the cardio to back it up (you will get winded way too fast). This essentially more than doubles the time it takes for you to do your necessary conditioning to be competitve in your sport. Kettlebells enable you to do both. Also, once someone reaches the point of doing “a certain number of snatches” (100+) in 5 min, then you can rest assured that their conditioning is at a level where they are dominating competition in their respective sport. There are NFL players (check dragondoor’s website- I don’t remember their names but they are on there) that have stated that their careers may have been prolonged 5,6, or even 7 years because of the benefits of training with kettlebells. (this form of training hasn’t regained popularity until very recently, hence the reasoning for its current lag from the Arnold-era training that made dumbbells and barbells so popular back in the 70′s).
With kettlebells, you don’t need to do windsprints, cardio, or other conditioning, unless you want to do some that would be complemetary to it.
In conclusion, though dumbbells, may be better at building, large, bulky muscles; they are essentially better for “aesthetics”. Without the cardio to back it up, dumbbells are essentially completely for looks. Kettlebells shine because they enable you to build tremendous functional strength and conditioning in ways that dumbbells simply can’t (in much less time). It really depends on what your strength goals are- if you are a skinny kid who “just wants to bulk up” then maybe you should stick with dumbbells. If you are someone who wants to address all avenues of your strength and conditioning in a time frame that is realistic for today’s busy individual, then spending some time learning to use kettlebells properly and then actually exercising will be your best bet. (even jogging improperly will lead to knee injuries).
Anthony
-CA
Anthony:
Thanks for the comment. You make a lot of good points in a sincere manner.
But I believe you’re missing the big picture.
You teach your favorite style of workout. That’s fine. But you go to great pains to paint it as somehow being exclusive to people who use kettlebells.
It is not.
Think about what you wrote: “Kettlebell training focuses primarily on muscule endurance“. This is inaccurate. What you mean to say is that your style of training focuses on muscular endurance, and you use a kettlebell during training. There is no reason you can’t do a muscular endurance workout with other tools (tools that I believe are superior).
Many athletes work out in a way that’s very similar to the workouts you recommend. They use high rep, olympic-style movements, and complexes or circuits, and they never think to use a kettlebell. There is no good reason to use a kettlebell for these sorts of workouts.
There’s a huge world out there, and Arnold-style bodybuilding is only a small part of it. I say dumbbells are superior to kettlebells and I stand behind that, no matter what style of training you prefer. There’s simply nothing you can do with a kettlebell that I can’t do better with adjustable dumbbells.
I train to get better at my sport. I don’t train just to be part of a group-think club that worships an implement. Training for me isn’t a competition or a game, so I use the tools that best suit the job.
If “kettlebell training” is your sport, so be it. That’s fine with me. I’ll keep teaching people the difference between ‘kettlebell training’ and general purpose training, and why kettlebells don’t serve their purposes as well as other tools.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I don’t think kettlebells are any more or less safe then dumbbells or barbells. They’re all heavy weights. The truth is in the past I have hurt myself with all of the above, almost always through doing something stupid on my part.
There is nothing in the design that is inherently more dangerous than a dumbbell. The offset mass gives different effects. Can it cause injuries? Yes if you’re not aware of how to use a kettlebell differently than a dumbbell. Or if you go to heavy or lose control, just like in anything else. Sure kettlebells take a little more technique to get use too than dumbbells, the skill training pointed to in the article, but with that you’re good to go.
As was stated, it’ll depend on your goals. I think kettlebells are a good way, even great way, to reach many goals. In other cases other tools will be better suited for the job.
John ,
If you don’t like a certain fitness routine or you think it is dangerous, don’t do it. It really is that simple, it’s not rocket science. There’s guys that do parkour that’s a million times more dangerous – wish i could do it too!
Why am I even having this ‘conversation’.
You are free to do whatever you want. Best way is to surround yourself with positive people. Logan (the other one) seems to be one such guy. The kettlebell juggling looks awesome!
“There is nothing in the design that is inherently more dangerous than a dumbbell.”
The difference is that if a kettlebell snatch goes wrong the iron ball hits your arm and breaks it.
I used dumbells for 25 years. A dumbbell snatch would never have broken my arm.
Anyway, you have not yet seen my response to all the points in your third and fourth post, Logan.
That post is still awaiting moderation (because it was so long I think) and may be published if you check back later.
(I think it will appear 3 posts up-page from this one)
James,
Sometimes by the time you find out how dangerous the exercise is, it’s too late.
I found that out with the snatch.
I don’t see what is positive about creating the illusion that exercises which are not safe are safe.
Why do people think the kettlebell snatch is safe?
Because of the positive info they hear on the snatch.
Now I know that info is false, negative info. How do I know? Because after I broke my arm snatching, I tried to report the injury on kettlebell websites ABOUT kettlebell injury, even on web-pages specifically ABOUT kettlebell snatch injury. These websites would not publish the info, because that info is bad for business. They did not want people warned what could happen. I do admit I’ve felt a bit negative about the kettlebell since one broke my left forarm in half.
With kettlebell juggling the problem is even more obvious.
Logan (the positive one) is positive that overhead kettlebell juggling with heavy weight can be done safely.
I’m positive that it cannot be done consistently safely, and that it is only a matter of time before the first tragedy.
“surround yourself with positive people”
What self-help New Age book you been reading, boy?
The “Gee Awesome I wanna do that cos they are!” manual?
Give me old Europe’s tradition of solar pessimism anyday (less B.S to digest with one’s greens)
But…Awesome post James, thanks for the “conversation”.
John ,
I am member of an olympic weight lifting club in South London. We have had many injuries, some serious through barbell snatching and clean& jerk . Only the other day we had a shoulder dislocation. We also use kettlebells both for conditioning and competititive lifting called Girevoy Sport where male competitors snatch a single bell for 10 minutes and also clean & jerk for 10 minute with two bells. Female competitors only use one bell on both disciplines. We’ve used kettlebells for almost two decades, no major injuries to report of except a few sore hands. So to clarify – all forms of weight training could be considered dangerous, including the kettlebells but we tend not to think about it as we enjoy what we do.
Shame about your injury at least it’s impressive to show people – any photos. LOL
James
James,
Aye, I never thought about injury in first 24 years training and never had any, just enjoyed what I did. Same went for the 9 month kettlebell training, never imagined injury was possible, just enjoyed it…
A long time up-page in all this “conversation” I acknowledged that if you get good face-to-face instruction, like from your club maybe…then that is probably going to go a long way to stop UNNECESSARY injury.
I only learned the kettlebell snatch from books and DVDs, they only said to watch out for forearm pain, or forearm bruising, I had neither, my 32-rep snatch workouts felt fine and looked fine to the 4 or 5 mates who witnessed (but they weren’t kettlebell instructors). But all that meant nothing, even after 6 months of nothing-but-enjoyable snatch workouts I broke the arm.
Maybe this is because I only learned from books and DVDs, I don’t know.
I spotted the same potential danger regarding the juggling, overhead with heavy weight, even in the video with the “professionals” doing it there are fumbles and missed catches, and the bell coming down just past the head.
I saw DVDs teaching this were being sold by Mr Christopher from his website, and I could imagine some-one getting one and trying it WITHOUT FACE-TO-FACE INSTRUCTION.
Same with the Youtube videos, people will copy them…I mean, Mr Christopher did a post on The World’s Strongest Librarian site, encouraging people to do it, stating that mastery of the snatch isn’t enough, true mastery would involve the juggling…so the idea is being promoted at people.
People will use the DVDs or written info to learn the stuff alone, thinking it is maybe safer than it is (as I did with the snatch) and someone is going to get real fxxxed up, much worse than a dislocated shoulder.
You think the juggling is awesome James?
OK, when are you going to try overhead juggling a 32kg bell?
Give it a try and report how it goes.
“all forms of weight training could be considered dangerous”
I’m not here saying stuff like that. I trained happily for 24 years, including training others, nothing dangerous about it, not one injury in me or anyone else.
The kettlebell thing, with the modern internet business model hard behind it, spreading the word, is a different matter.
Lof of people reporting injuries on this page, James, that they did not get with other weight training. Read up=page and you’ll see.
Photos? No man, nowt to see here now but a little scar, arm looks normal otherwise.
John
I’ve discussed this with others. The reason people accuse you of being a liar, an idiot, having weak bones, horrible form or any and everything else is because the injury is a freak accident. I do not understand how the kettlebell could break your arm from a snatch that was no different from any other. It doesn’t even seem possible. I have not heard of another case of it ever happening. (And I realize none of this matters personally to you because you’re the one who it did happen too.)
I’m sure these same thoughts occur to most people who read your story. Then when you come into their realm on their website, forum and blog with an attacking attitude (again this is how it comes across even if you’re just trying to inform) are you really surprised people attack you back or your comments are deleted?
James brought up an excellent point about parkour. There are tons more videos online with no warnings. This is a lot more dangerous than kettlebells or even kettlebell juggling and people do get hurt all the time. I also do promote a Parkour Tutorial DVD on one of my sites:
http://www.lostartofhandbalancing.com/products/parkour-dvd/
I understand your desire to warn or protect people from injuries with kettlebells. Its a noble cause. I think for the reasons stated above its mostly a lost cause too.
Yes injuries result from kettlebells, mostly from poor use. Yes injuries occur from any other weight lifting or physical training. Should these be made more evident to people? Sure, but a lot of things SHOULD be done.
You did well to never get hurt in 24 years of training. That’s truly amazing to never suffer even a minor injury in that time. Then a freak accident happened with kettlebells.
If, when you were looking at kettlebells, you read about one guy who broke his arm would that really have deterred you? James just mentioned dislocating shoulders with Olympic lifts. Is that risk going to stop my from ever doing those or touching a barbell? No.
At some point it is possible someone will suffer a bad injury or possibly even death at the hands of kettlebell juggling. It could happen. That really sucks. But going back to personal responsibility I think it is self-evident the dangers that are in doing these things. Just like parkour. By engaging in the activity you realize these possible risks and decide to go forward regardless of them. Can I have people online sign a waiver saying they understand the risks? I can’t. I can promote kettlebell juggling, and people that want to do it will get started. People that don’t want to do it will not. Once again I’m not forcing anyone.
http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_748b6b22-7cc5-11de-bd97-001cc4c03286.html